>> FLORIDA’S STAND YOUR GROUND LAW IS ALREADY CONTROVERSIAL AND NOW THE GOVNER WANTS TO EXPAND
IT TO COVER VIOLENCE THAT
HAPPENS AT DEMONSTRATIONS.
>> THAT’S THE MAIN REASON THIS
SO CALLED ANTI-MOB LEGISLATION
PITCHED BY THE GOVERNOR IS THE
FOCUS OF SUCH DEBATE.
AND TO GET A SENSE OF WHAT IT
WOULD DO AND GET BEYOND THE
POLITICS OF IT WE HAVE WITH US
TODAY DAN GELBER WHO YOU KNOW IS
MIAMI BEACH’S MAYOR, THOUGH IN A
FORMER LIFE WAS A FEDERAL
PROSECUTOR, AND WE HAVE THE
PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE FLORIDA
ASSOCIATION OF CRIMINAL DEFENSE
LAWYERS, TWO OF THE GREAT LEGAL
MINDS THAT WE KNOW HERE TO SORT
OF GIVE US, FRAME THIS OUT.
DAN, LET ME START WITH YOU.
ESSENTIALLY IF PEOPLE DON’T WANT
THE CONSEQUENCES THEY SHOULDN’T
COMMIT THE CRIME.
SO WHY IS THIS SUCH A TOPIC OF
DEBATE.
>> WELL LOOK, I THINK THAT THIS
WAS AUTHORED BY THE GOVERNOR AS
PART OF A PREELECTION RED MEAT
SMORGASBORD TO BOOST THE BASE
TURNOUTIN THE ELECTION.
IT SHOULDN’T BE CONSIDERED
SERIOUS LEGISLATION BUT OF
COURSE I SERVED TEN YEARS IN THE
LEGISLATURE AND A LOT OF STUFF
THAT ISN’T RESPONSIBLE HAS BEEN
PASSED.
I THINK THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS
LEGISLATION, WE DON’T HAVE THE
PROBLEM.
WE HAVE LAWS THAT PROTECT
PROPERTY, WE HAVE LAWS THAT
EXPLAIN SELF-DEFENSE.
WE DON’T NEED TO CREATE A WHOLE
NEW KIND OF THING THAT I THINK
WOULD SIMPLY BE A GREEN LIGHT TO
THE KIND OF VIGILANTISM WHEN WE
SAW THE 17 YEAR OLD KID IN
KENOSHA BROUGHT AN AR-15 TO
PROTECT A BUSINESS AND ENDED UP
KILLING TWO PEOPLE AND IS NOW
STANDING ON TRIAL FOR THAT.
I DON’T THINK WE NEED TO TAKE
CARE OF THIS THE WAY THE
GOVERNOR IS TRYING TO SIMPLY YOU
KNOW, I THINK BOOST HIS
CREDIBILITY WITH THE BASE OF THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY.
>> YOU CAN FOLLOW UP TO, THAT
ARE THERE ALREADY LAWS THAT
COVER ALL OF THIS STUFF?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND I COULDN’T AGREE WITH DAN
ANY MORE.
I THINK IT VERY DANGEROUS.
WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT HERE IS
ESSENTIALLY PUTTING DEATH
PENALTY ON TO A PROPERTY CRIME.
THE LAWS ARE WRITTEN IN A WAY
THAT HE WHY, IF YOU BREAK THE
LAW THERE IS A FUNNISHMENT BUT
THE PUNISHMENT HAS TO BE
APPROPRIATE.
THIS IS ESSENTIALLY DEPUTIZING
THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO VERY
DANGEROUSLY ENGAGE WHAT WOULD BE
A PROPERTY CRIME.
YOU KNOW, AND THE LAW WAS FIRST
PASSED I’M SURE YOU’LL RECALL IT
WAS REFERRED TO AS THE SHOOT
FIRST ASK QUESTIONS LATER LAW.
AND THIS IS EXPANDING IT TO
PROPERTY CRIMES, SO THAT IS A
VERY SCARY PROPOSITION.
>> WELL, JUDE, IN FACT, AS I
READ THE PROPOSED LAW, A
PROPERTY CRIME, SOMEBODY, A
DEMONSTRATOR PULLING DOWN A
STATUE LET’S SAY COULD BE SEEN
AS CRIMINAL MISCHIEF AND ANOTHER
CIVILIAN WHO IS AT THAT
DEMONSTRATION HO HAD A GUN WOULD
BE ALLOWED UNDER THE LAW TO
SHOOT THE DEMONSTRATOR AND
PERHAPS DO IT WITH IMMUNITY, DO
I READ THAT RIGHT?
>> I BELIEVE YOU DO.
AND THE ISSUE THERE CAN’T BE
OVERSTATED.
AGAIN WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT
IS CRIMINAL MISCHIEF, CRIMINAL
MISCHIEF CAN BE A SECOND DEGREE
MISDEMEANOR WHICH CURRENTLY IS
PUNISHMENT ABLE BY 60 DAYS IN
JAIL.
WHAT THIS LEGISLATION IS DOING
IS SEBLLY SAYING HEY GENERAL
PUBLIC IF YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE A
FIRE ARM YOU ARE WELCOME TO
ENGAGE THIS SITUATION.
YOU’RE WELCOME TO DISCHARGE YOUR
FIRE ARM WITH DEADLY FORCE AND
POTENTIALLY KILL SOMEONE FOR
WHAT WOULD BE A SECOND DEGREE
MISDEMEANOR.
WE DON’T PUNISH PROPERTY CRIMES
WITH DEATH IN THE CIVILIZED
WORLD.
AND I AGREE WITH DAN THAT THIS
LEGISLATION REALLY DOESN’T HAVE
MUCH CHANCE.
>> ALL RIGHT, WELL THE GOVERNOR
ACTUALLY EXPLAINED HIMSELF AND
IS HE THE BEST PERSON TO EXPLAIN
HIMSELF SO I WANT TO LET YOU
LISTEN WHAT GOVERNOR DESANTIS
SAID ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR
PROPOSAL, TALK A LISTENNESS WE
ARE GOING TO IMPOSE CRIMINAL
PENALTIES FOR VIOLENT OR
DISORDERLY ASSEMBLIES AND THAT
WILL BE A THIRD DEGREE FELONY.
WE WILL ALSO REQUIRE A FELONY IF
YOU Z INCAPACITATE ANY OF THE
ROADWAYS.
WE SEE PEOPLE TAKE OVER
INTERSTATES.
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY HAZARDOUS.
IT’S NOT FAIR TO MOTORISTS WHO
MAY GET CAUGHT UP IN THAT.
>> SO DAN, THOSE LAWS KIND OF DO
EXIST YOUR POINT EARLIER.
HOWEVER WE SAW ESPECIALLY AFTER
THE GEORGE FLOYD’S DEATH AND
PROTEST NATIONWIDE AND RIGHT
HERE IN MIAMI DADE COUNTY AND
BROWARD, THERE WERE PEOPLE
PROTESTING, YOU KNOW, SOME OF IT
WAS A LITTLE BIT TROUBLE.
THEY WERE TAKING OVER THE
ROADWAYS, THERE ARE LAWS THAT
COVER THAT BUT LAW ENFORCEMENT
DECIDE TO LET IT GO IF IT WAS A
PEACEFUL QUOTE UNQUOTE PROTEST.
SO WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
>> LET’S BE VERY CLEAR.
FIRST OF ALL, THE MOST IMPORTANT
POINT YOU RAISED WAS THAT THERE
ARE LAWS THAT IF WE CHOOSE TO
ENFORCE THEM, WE COULD, WE COULD
HAVE.
AND IN FACT WE DID IN CERTAIN
CIRCUMSTANCES.
I THINK YOU WATCHED THOSE
PROTESTS PLAY OUT HERE.
AND I WILL SAY THIS, I THINK THE
CITY OF MIAMI MAYOR FRANCIS
SAWREASY AND POLICE CHIEF SHOWED
THE KIND OF RESTRAINT YOU WOULD
HOPE BECAUSE I THINK IT COULD
HAVE BEEN A DIFFERENT SCENARIO
WHERE THERE WAS ALL-OUT GUN PLAY
OR WORSE WHERE PEOPLE WERE DYING
AND THINGS LIKE THAT.
NONE OF THAT HAPPENED HERE.
YOU ARE RIGHT, IT WAS-- I WAS ON
THE ROAD BY THE WAY IF THAT
HAPPENED AND I REMEMBER THINKING
TO MYSELF THIS IS QUITE AN
INCONVENIENCE BUT I THINK THEY
SHOWED THE RIGHT KIND OF
RESTRAINT.
THE GOVERNOR SAID LISTEN, IF YOU
RUN SOMEBODY OVER, YOU KNOW,
IT’S OKAY.
LITERALLY THE LAW WOULD ALLOW
THAT KIND OF ACTION TO BE SORT
OF DEFENSIBLE.
AND I DON’T KNOW WHY WE WOULD
WANT THAT.
WE HAVE LAWS PROTECTING
PROPERTY.
WE HAVE SELF-DEFENSE LAWS.
IF YOU CAUSE PROPERTY DAMAGE IN
THE NAME OF A CAUSE YOU SHOULD
BE TREATED NO BETTER OR WORSE
THAN ANYONE WHO JUST DOES IT FOR
ANOTHER REASON.
SO I DON’T SEE THE NEED FOR THIS
AT ALL.
AND I WILL SAY THIS, THIS IS
ABSOLUTELY POLITICAL.
THE ONLY THING I DISAGREE WITH
JUDE ON IS IT IS PRETTY CLEAR
THAT YOU KNOW HE’S PRETTY
CONFIDENT IT DOESN’T HAVE A
CHANCE.
I SERVED UP THERE AND EVERY TIME
I SAID GEE, THAT WILL NEVER
HAPPEN, IT OFTEN HAPPENS.
AND YOU KNOW, SO I THINK YOU
HAVE TO REALIZE THAT IF THE
GOVERNOR WANTS TO DO THIS HE CAN
POWER THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE
BUT I WILL SAY THIS TO THE
GOVERNOR, YOU KNOW, HE SEEMS
PRETTY INTENT ON FULLY AND
COMPLETELY ADDRESSING A PROBLEM
THAT LITERALLY DOESN’T EXIST IN
FLORIDA BUT HE HAS YOUR LAST
SPEAKER DR. MARTY POINTED OUT,
WILL NOT IMPLEMENT A MASK
MANDATE AS THE STATE APPROACHES
NEARLY 18,000 DEATHS.
THERE HAS GOT TO BE MORE
IMPORTANT PRESSING THINGS FOR
THE GOVERNOR AND LEGISLATURE TO
ADDRESS OTHER THAN A PROBLEM
THAT LITERALLY DOESN’T EXIST IN
THE STATE OF FLORIDA RIGHT NOW.
>> YOU KNOW, I WOULD POINT OUT
AND FORGIVE ME, YOU TWO ARE VERY
FINE LAWYERS BUT I JUST WANT TO
REMIND EVERYBODY THAT THE FIRST
AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION
GUARANTEES QUOTE THE RIGHT OF
THE PEOPLE
PEACEFULLY-- PEACEABLY TO
ASSEMBLE AND PETITION THEIR
GOVERNMENT FOR RED RES OF
GRIEVEANCES.
NOW THE GOVERNOR IN HIS DEFENSE
IS TALKING ABOUT DISORDERLY
ASSEMBLIES.
BUT WHO IS TO SAY WHAT EXACTLY
IS A DISORDERLY ASSEMBLY.
I WOULD POINT OUT THAT BACK IN
THE LATE 1950S EARLY ’60S ALL
THE BLACK PEOPLE WHO WENT TO
LUNCH COUNTERS AND ASKED TO BE
SERVED INCLUDING IN MIAMI, THAT
WOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED A
DISORDERLY ASSEMBLY.
>> WELL, I CAN SPEAK TO THAT.
I COULDN’T AGREE MORE THAT THIS
IS AN END RUN AROUND FIRST
AMENDMENT RIGHTS.
THE GOVERNOR CAN’T TRIM ANY FAT
OFF THE FIRST AMENDMENT SO
ESSENTIALLY WHAT HE IS SAYING IS
YOU CAN EXERCISE THAT RIGHT BUT
AT YOUR OWN RISK.
>> JUDE, LET MAY ASK YOU A
QUESTION REAL QUICKLY BECAUSE WE
HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS.
YOU HAVE DONE THESE KIND OF
CASES, TO USE A STAND YOUR
GROUND DEFENSE IS A HILL TO
CLIMB.
IT’S NOT A BLANKET.
SO THERE IS STILL THAT COMPONENT
WHERE THIS DEFENSE MAY NOT BE
USABLE UNLESS YOU AS AN ATTORNEY
GET THE EVIDENCE TO RISE TO THAT
LEVEL, RIGHT?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, IT IS
NOT AS HIGH AS HILL AS YOU MAY
THINK IT IS.
IN 2017 THE STATUTE WAS AMENDED
TO SHIFT THE BURDEN TO THE
STATE.
SO IF I PRESENT THIS THROUGH A
MOTION AND I SAY MY CLIENT’S
IMMUNE IT THEN BECOMES THE
STATE’S OBLIGATION TO DISPROVE
THAT.
NOW I’M A CRIMINAL DEFENSE
LAWYER SO ANYTHING THAT MAKES IT
HARDER FOR THE STATE, I’M IN
FAVOR OF.
BUT THE REALITY IS THAT THAT IS
A VERY DIFFICULT THING TO PUT ON
THE STATE OF FLORIDA WHICH IS TO
PROVE A NEGATIVE.
SO IT’S NOT QUITE AS DIFFICULT
AS YOU MIGHT THINK GLENNA.
>> ALL RIGHT, WELL, I WANT TO
THANK YOU, JUDE, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH.
DAN, OLD FRIEND, THANKS FOR
BEING WITH US THIS MORNING.
WE APPRECIATE IT.