DAN: "What are the symptoms of copper deficiency?
Are rose colored spots on skin not covered by hair,
particularly on the inner rear legs near the abdomen
one of the symptoms of it?
And then what is the best way to correct that deficiency?"
DR LYDIA GRAY: Hm.
Well, I spend most of my time on--
DAN: I'm very curious as to what you're
going to say with this one.
DR LYDIA GRAY: Oh, me too.
So the whole rose colored spots thing.
Have you seen those?
Do you know what she's talking about?
DAN: A little bit.
DR LYDIA GRAY: OK.
I've seen them.
DAN: Yeah.
DR LYDIA GRAY: And you kind of see them more
when the horse gets wet.
DAN: OK.
Oh, yes.
Yes.
DR LYDIA GRAY: She's talking about a place
where there's not hair.
I bet if she wet her horse and looked, she'd see more of them.
I don't think those have anything
to do with copper deficiency.
The only thing that I could find about copper deficiency
in horses, and it's not even in the NRC, which is my go to,
but it's hair color.
But first, we'll go back to the NRC.
And here's what they say.
Notice there's no mention of hair.
DAN: OK.
DR LYDIA GRAY: "Copper is essential for several copper
dependent enzymes involved in the synthesis and maintenance
of elastic connective tissue, mobilization of iron stores."
So anemia can be a result. "Preservation of the integrity
of mitochondria."
Goodness.
"Melanin synthesis."
DAN: OK.
So that does.
DR LYDIA GRAY: "And detoxification of super
oxides."
So it has the role as an antioxidant.
So yeah.
I'm thinking the melanin synthesis is--
let's go down that rabbit hole.
Shall we?
DAN: Let's go down it.
DR LYDIA GRAY: OK.
So melanin is a pigment.
And the enzyme that's responsible for pigment
production is copper dependent.
DAN: OK.
DR LYDIA GRAY: So if you don't have enough copper,
you can't make the enzyme that makes melanin.
DAN: Yes.
I'm with you.
DR LYDIA GRAY: OK.
Shoot.
DAN: Without this, you can't have that.
DR LYDIA GRAY: Right.
DAN: OK.
DR LYDIA GRAY: So if you're not making enough pigment,
then in chestnut horses, and Nerida
said she looks at cattle first.
They seem to be the first canary.
Like they send the canaries in the coal mines.
They're the first signal of copper deficiency,
maybe in the hay or pasture in the area.
Herefords are supposed to be this really rich copper,
orange, red almost color like a liver chestnut.
And when they become copper deficient,
they turn this icky, light orange, yellowish color.
DAN: OK.
DR LYDIA GRAY: Yeah.
It just looks muted.
DAN: A little duller.
DR LYDIA GRAY: Dull.
Yeah.
And then black horses, what they do is the tips of the hair
especially--
in the mane you'll see it-- it turns
kind of rust or copper colored.
Because they're losing their black pigment.
DAN: Oh.
DR LYDIA GRAY: Yeah.
DAN: And that's at the tips, not at the roots I think.
DR LYDIA GRAY: Right.
Right.
So you see it at the tips.
And another thought is that when you
don't have a full dose of pigment,
then when UV radiation, sunlight,
you're exposed to it for a long length of time,
the hair bleaches out easier, because there's not
a full dose of color there.
DAN: Well, that's what I was going to ask you.
For as far as seeing the tips on a black horse
be a little rusted looking, how do you
know that's not just from sun bleaching?
Or how do you know it's--
DR LYDIA GRAY: But I think it's related.
DAN: OK.
DR LYDIA GRAY: It's related.
And it could be copper deficiency.
Now, the trick, and why I made such a face when
you said how do you fix it?
You call a Nerida.
Because copper is a micro mineral or a trace mineral.
So you need it in very small amounts.
And the NRC says 100 milligrams a day.
And zinc is another one that also has a role in color.
That's 400 milligrams a day.
So it's a one to four ratio.
DAN: OK.
DR LYDIA GRAY: If you don't have enough copper
then you may run into these other issues as well as color.
Or if you have too much of other trace minerals
that are either interacting or preventing
the absorption of copper, you run into it.
So see, the interaction is tricky.
DAN: Yes.
DR LYDIA GRAY: So it's not as simple as just,
oh, give him more copper.
DAN: Because then you can impact another mineral.
DR LYDIA GRAY: So if you think you have a horse with a copper
deficiency, you probably should have the whole diet evaluated.
And then try to build from the ground up a balanced diet,
and not just add in things.
Because I think you're going to make a worse
problem just adding in copper.
DAN: So you did bring in Dr. Richards.
And so we didn't explain FeedXL at the beginning of this,
which I do apologize for.
But you can actually go on to FeedXL
and put in your horse's complete diet,
from grain, to hay, to supplements.
And then it gives this beautiful chart,
kind of showing where your horse is deficient,
and then where your horse is doing really well in certain--
DR LYDIA GRAY: It has the 100% line.
And then it has graphs, little bars.
And it says you're not quite there.
Or you're there.
Or you're even past it.
DAN: So it can kind of let you play around
to see what you can do to get your horse to optimal levels
for certain nutrients.
So that could be a resource for you guys
to take advantage of to see where you guys need
to-- especially for something like copper,
where it's so specific of a mineral.
DR LYDIA GRAY: Yeah.
And it's such a little amount that they need.
But without that, they can't make the enzymes.
And the enzymes, I mean, we see it
on the outside because of the hair coat.
But there's lots of stuff going on on the inside
if the enzyme is not there.
DAN: So hair coat color potentially could be a sign.
Though, the rose colored spots on the skin, probably not.
DR LYDIA GRAY: Probably not.
DAN: OK.
DR LYDIA GRAY: And if she's concerned,
I mean, ask the vet the next time she is out there.
But I see those a lot, and they don't seem to be a problem,
and they don't seem to spread.
And I guess I don't worry about them.
DAN: All right.
We won't worry about them then.