Ed Miliband: former leader of the Labour party. Now, I know a lot of you, from the comments,
kind of miss him being about, contributing.
He's got loads to say, whatever you think about him and I want to talk to him – not
about raking over the past so much – but about what, WTF, what is going on? In Britain,
in America, Trumpism, Brexit, what he thinks the future is, what does he think of the Labour
leadership and what it's doing?
Loads of stuff to ask and I think we're going to have a pretty good conversation.
................ There's a tweet that David Cameron sent a
few days before the last general election and it reads as follows;
'Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice: stability and strong government with me or
chaos with Ed Miliband.'
Well, look it hasn't worked out that way.
Do you laugh or cry at that?
Oh, look, you know...
I mean, d'you not remember, because that's what they went on about over and over again.
– I know, I know.
– It'll be chaos, the world will collapse. Britain's in the biggest crisis since 1945.
I mean, do you not look at that and think; 'pffft, I feel a bit annoyed.'
Well, so do I but, you know, what is to be done?
– What are you going to do?
– Look, there's no doubt that the referendum was driven by political calculation on his
part. He obviously assumed he could win it. He would win it. And it obviously hasn't worked
out that way. Erm...
I've been aged by this year, I look at least 15 now.
I noticed that actually.
I thought so, I'm kind of getting a few grey hairs. Even more than you, maybe.
Yeah, indeed.
No, I mean, it's the sort of year you kind of adopt the brace position.
I've got fewer grey hairs actually as a result of, you know, changing my job.
Ha ha! See, there are some mercies.
This year has been pretty bleak and I suppose I'd start with a kind of WTF: Brexit Trump.
To what extent do you reckon those two things are similar?
So, there's this big debate going on, isn't there? About whether it's class and the economic
system or race and identity and I think, clearly, both play a role.
My emphasis would be on – not to the exclusion of the second – but the first.
It's discontent with the economic system and, indeed, I think, the political system. And
I sort of think that is ... I think that's undeniable. After all, what would drive people
to vote for a Donald Trump apart from deep discontent with the system?
So, do you reckon there's kind of two types almost of ... Because obviously racism, many
people, obviously played a role ...
But there aren't 62 million racists who voted for Donald Trump or 17 million who voted for
Brexit and I think it's really important, this. There may be ... There is a small minority,
no doubt.
Our whole analysis about inequality is that it is to do with relativity, it's their situation
compared to other people's situation. And people are thinking; 'well, hang on a minute,
I'm stuck...'
You know Mark Carney just said, what was it? This is a lost...
Don't be too nice about him. He said this is a lost decade comparable to the 1860s,
you know, and a few years ago that would have been a very radical speech for a mainstream
politician, maybe even today.
You know, that says something about the mood and the challenge of the times and I think
that is the most important thing for the left, which is to understand the scale of discontent.
Does the rise of Trumpism and the rest, does it change how we ... the rules of the game,
if you like?
Look, yes. You know, you can't see the events that have unfolded in 2016 and think; 'well,
business as usual is going to sort this out.'
It is in some senses a scary time and in many senses a gloomy time but I can't help feeling
also that this is – in the next five to ten years – when a new script has got to
be written.
Trump and Brexit aren't going to solve a lot of the deep problems that Trump and Brexit
identified, in my view.
Now, this is a devil's advocate argument but some watching this – a lot of people watching
this, I hear this argument all the time – they say the referendum was based on lies as well
as bigotry and they'll say that Brexit is an inevitable disaster, buyers' remorse will
set in, so what Labour should do is say 'no to Brexit'. We will be vindicated and then
we'll overturn it, have a second referendum. What do you say to that argument?
Well, I'm going to disappoint some of the people who think that because, you know, I
didn't want the referendum but now that it has happened I think it is incredibly important
that we honour it.
17.4 million people voted for Brexit, many of whom voted for it, partly because of deep
discontent with the political system. Imagine if the political system comes along and says;
'right we're now going to overturn the result and ignore your mandate.'
Part of my job and the job of people in the Labour party is to convince people that there
is something to fight for for the kind of Brexit we end up with and I think there is.
By the way, the other thing I would say is, you know, there are a lot of issues where
remain and leave voters share the same interests.
Parents in my constituency who are worried about the future of their kids, who voted
leave... Parents who voted remain are worried about the future for their kids.
People are worried about the squeeze on their wages who voted leave, well there are remain
voters who worried about that too.
And that is Labour's job, which is to honour the result of the referendum, fight for a
progressive vision – the most progressive vision we can get of Brexit – and tackle
these deep issues which unite both sides of what looks like a massive divide at the moment.
And does that worry you that massive divide? Because I don't think Britain has been this
divided. I mean, in terms of the future of our country.
Well, that's why I think it's like general elections divide people but in a particular
way where we know the route map. We know what happens and, you know, four or five years
later you get a chance to turn it around. It's a different kettle of fish this. It's
a different story and I think that's one of the reasons why it's so disorienting for people.
The Tories are saying they're negotiating a deal that's honouring the democratic verdicts
of the British people, including over freedom of movement, I mean...
We wish we knew what it was. Tell us the plan.
Have you not heard they've revealed the plan?
Well...
Have you not heard what they've said?
Oh, a red, white and blue plan. Yeah. Yeah.
There you go, a nice multicoloured Brexit there for everybody to wrap ourselves in.
Yeah.
Where do you think we're heading? In terms of strategy, what are the dangers/
I don't think they know. I mean, look, I think fundamentally they don't really know. For
the good of the country I think it's much better if they lay out the difficult trade-offs
because at the moment they want to pretend that they're going to deliver on everything
that was promised. Maybe not the £350 million for the NHS, which they're obviously not going
to deliver on.
But that's not the way trade-offs work and that's not the way negotiations work and I
think it's like they're storing up even more disappointment and anger and betrayal, which
is also going to be bad for the country.
Look, lay out the plan. Lay out the difficult trade-offs. Not every dot and comma of your
negotiating strategy but where do you stand on single market? Where do you stand on the
customs union? Where do you stand on these fundamental questions? And what are you aiming
for?
But they say, don't they, that we can't do that because that's revealing our hand and
you don't do that in a negotiation. We've gotta....
A, the negotiations always leak anyway. You've got, what? 27 other governments, even more
national parliaments, the European parliament. I think the notion this is going to remain
a secret, you know... So at the moment, because they're refusing to lay out a plan, you get
Theresa May implying that there's going to be a transitional deal and then sort of briefing
against herself and saying; 'well there's not going to be one.'
David Davis saying we're going to pay to get access to the single market and then maybe
Boris Johnson saying not.
I don't think it's a very good way of holding the country together and, by the way, that's
the other thing.
If you want the voice of the 48% to be heard, their voice can't be heard if you don't at
least bring them into the conversation.
A lot of people in Doncaster, a lot of people where I grew up, they feel a lot of them that
immigration is the source of many of the problems that they face.
Other people, particularly in more diverse places, in London and big cities, they don't
feel the same way at all.
So what would you argue the left have to say now about immigration in a way that isn't
capitulating to what some would say is anti-immigration rhetoric that isn't based on facts?
My starting point is that migration, immigration brings economic, cultural and other benefits
to our country. We've got to put the economy first, we've got to put jobs and living standards
first but I don't think we can argue for no change at all in relation to the negotiations.
Is that tricky and hard to get the right combination of protecting our economy and getting some
change on freedom of movement? Yes, but you can't separate it out from the negotiations
about the economy because the last thing we want to do is come up with and immigration
system which satisfies people but then an economically disastrous system, which does
in my constituents. Because that is not going to serve anybody.
The far right failed in Austria. One bit of good news for 2016.
Definitely.
I'll take what I can, frankly. The fact we're celebrating the fact only 46% of a European
country voted for a far right candidate to be head of state, I mean, it shows where we're
at but that's the reality. But, nonetheless, do you think this tide, this hard right populist
tide is going to sweep all before it? Because it does look like that at the moment.
Look, it is obviously worrying. I didn't think Trump was going to win and I obviously didn't
think Brexit was going to win.
Stop hoping things won't happen!
So don't rely on me for predictions. Or did you think Brexit and Trump were going to win?
I thought Brexit was going to win. We did a video, which people can click on as evidence.
Oh right, and you were right.
I did a sombre video, it was very sombre and I said what I thought would happen as a consequence.
Yeah, and they did happen.
You thought Trump would win too?
No, on Trump I was more of a kind of, I think. I thought Hillary Clinton was a 60% likely,
55% likely to win. So, I think probably just, you know.
See it's tough being right, isn't it?
It is difficult!
It's tougher being wrong.
It's so hard!
No, I don't think it's inevitable. But that's, in a way, got to be our sort of mandate. Don't
mourn organise, you know.
As an American trade unionist once sad.
You know, for Americans, and indeed for the world, it's about standing up for the right
values in the face of Donald Trump. This isn't about reproducing sort of false gods a la
Trump but it is about saying; 'how do we get equal to the scale of the challenges that
people are identifying in their lives. And that's got to be the work that needs to be
done.
Make America great again! Take back control! I wondered around Nuneaton with Adam who's
filming us just over there. People repeated back 'take back control', you know, over and
over again. People just said it spontaneously.
They have very clever messaging and collectively we just don't have the simple messages that
they have.
Yeah. That's your job to come up with them.
Oh for.... Honestly! I knew you were going to turn that on me.
No. No, look.... You're right. We're not going to come up with a slogan in this interview.
Come on! Let's do it now. Let's brainstorm a slogan, Ed.
But what does take back control say? It said something about people's sense that whether
it's corporations or governments, by the way, they were powerless against the massive forces
that there were. And I think that's what it speaks to.
Make America great again, well that spoke to people's sense that, you know, the American
dream had fractured and shattered for people. We've got to speak to that deep sense.
It is about inequality, obviously, at root but it sort of goes deeper and broader than
that.
You've been described as the most successful think tank in Britain.
Honestly, it's an accolade. Take it.
In the sense that a lot of what you said, the Tories at the time were like; 'ra ra ra',
you know, 'he's going to nationalise your mother.'
Venezuelan approach to housing...
A bit of cheeky Soviet thing thrown in as well.
Theresa May, she stood, do you remember? The day she became Prime Minister, this kind of,
what people called a Milibandite speech. They said; 'Oh, Ed Miliband could have written
this.'
Is she a Milibandite?
Well, she did consult me on the speech. Obviously, I gave her a bit of help.
I can imagine. Otherwise it's theft. Is she a Milibandite?
No. No.
Why's she doing it then?
Well, she's doing it because, to her credit, she recognises that the Brexit referendum
goes deeper than the immediate issues of immigration and Europe and so on and is a deeper sense
of frustration with the system.
Is she going to answer the challenge? No.
Just take this executive pay thing. Well, it's good that they've adopted some of our
proposals on executive pay but they're going to make inequality worse.
You know, they're still cutting the universal credit at the same time as offering big tax
cuts for corporations.
So it's a... It's a sort of pale imitation and beneath the surface they're not really
tackling those issues. And that's part of our job is to expose that truth.
I mean, you can claim a lot of vindication on this. You can. You can say a lot of what
you said was proved right. And yet here I am, I'm not speaking to prime minister Ed
Miliband.
Yeah, you noticed that.
But you know, you were vindicated on a lot of the analysis so why don't you think you
succeeded? Why didn't that analysis help?
Oh, I think it's too complicated. Look, I said on the day after the election I take
responsibility. More people wanted David Cameron to be prime minister. Scotland and the impact
in England, some of the hangover from 2008 and the financial crisis. There's a whole
range of issues and partly I feel we had good analysis and sometimes the solutions weren't
strong enough, weren't bold enough.
But look, part of the kind of task for me since the general election last year and,
in a way, for all of us after 2016, is not to look in the rear view mirror. Fine, learn
lessons but you've also got to move on and you've also got to recognise that the struggle
goes on in a different form.
Jeremy Corbyn. If you look at the polling that you had in the equivalent time of the
last parliament you were ahead of the Conservatives but didn't win. And Labour's not even close
to being ahead of the Conservatives. There's a big gap.
Do you think that his project can succeed?
We're in such an unpredictable time in politics. It's completely wrong to say you know what
is going to happen and he deserves the chance to succeed, he deserves the chance to put
his... He's won the leadership election not once but twice. That's why I'm supporting
him and I think, actually, that the mood of the parliamentary Labour party has changed
since the second leadership election.
So there won't be more... You don't think there will be another leadership coup?
No. I mean, I don't think people would be asking me but I don't think there will be.
He's getting on with the job, you know, then he's got his chance to talk to the country.
He's got to be allowed to do that and, goodness knows, I know as leader how hard the job is
and I think he deserves a chance to do that.
But he's got a chance maybe?
Absolutely! Absolutely.
A lot of people watching this are pretty despondent and they kind of want a bit of hope.
Now, to quote a famous philosopher, Taylor Swift, Ed... She didn't say Ed.
'Are we out of the woods? Are we out of the woods? Are we out of the woods yet?' Yes!
Sorry.
What hope is there?
You slightly screwed that up.
I did, I know. I'm regretting it now. I'm regretting throwing in Taylor Swift.
Genuinely though, what hope is there? Because the difference between 20... Do you know what
the main difference between 2016 and 2017 is?
Donald Trump is not president in 2016. He will be next year. His Twitter feed is colourful
and he won't just have access to his smartphone, he'll have access to the nuclear codes.
A lot of people are very scared and despondent. So...
Well, look, I understand that and I, you know, came to the end of 2015 and thought nothing
could be worse than 2015 and I was obviously wrong.
If you think about the history of the left, not just in Britain but internationally, it's
out of the darkest times that have come some of their biggest achievements. FDR and the
new deal came after the 1929 crash, the 1945 Labour government came after, you know, our
darkest time the Second World War.
So, the instruction is to be more ambitious, to be bolder, to think bigger, to rethink,
to not simply cling to old certainties and to recognise that it is a struggle, you have
to stand up in the here and now against some of the things that Trump will no doubt be
doing nationally and internationally and at the same time, you know, you've got to do
the deep thinking that is necessary. And that's what I'm going to play my part in.
I thought that was a really good chat. We covered quite a lot of ground but, critically,
a lot of stuff for you to get stuck into. Nicely, if that's alright? This channel is
about debate, discussion. So he had lots to say about the big issues facing Britain, the
world so, you know what? Leave your comments. I want to hear what you think. We've got loads
more interviews to come. Loads of interviews up here, I think. I think Adam will just edit
it in. Otherwise it's just me waving my hands about looking like a right.... dork? I was
going to say dork, does anyone say that?
Anyway, so subscribe and I'll see you next time.