In Harry and Meghan Markle's
interview with Oprah,
just a couple of days ago, one of
the most shocking lines was when
Megan Markle said that apparently
one of the members of the royal
family had brought up to Harry
concerns about the skin color,
potentially, of her children.
So that's horrible.
But what if it's also untrue?
Someone who I definitely trust for
evaluations of racism is Ben
Shapiro and his here's his theory
on that particular little factoid.
>> So then Megan Markel starts
talking about how difficult it
is she starts talking about how
racist everyone was.
And she relates a conversation,
in which apparently somebody asked
her darker son's skin would be.
Now, this would be
an excellent time for
Oprah being the interviewer to ask,
okay, can you name a name?
I mean, that would be if someone
says something as overtly racist,
as how dark is your son's skin
going to be?
First of all, What kind of stupid?
What?
I'm just going to say I don't
believe that happened.
I don't think that happened.
Honestly, God, I don't
think it happened.
The reason I don't think that
happened is because no one
says anything like that.
That's a ridiculous question.
How dark is your son's
skin going to be?
Like, beyond like the racism of it.
The actual stupidity like the human
stupidity.
Of having to ask that question.
Do you not know what biracial
children look like?
Like that's what?
Because I don't believe this for
a second but
here she is saying a thing.
Plus she's a maybe it's true and
she's such a bad actress that I
can't even tell that is true.
That's possible.
>> Okay, so first of all,
if you are going to accuse us of
speeding up the video, I swear that
we didn't that's actually what it
looks sounds like anyway.
So clay,
we talked about this because of
course he's very influential and
he is one of those on the Right.
That is a massive apologist for
racism which comes in a couple
different forms.
One of the most common ones is.
It just doesn't happen.
Nobody has those beliefs.
Nobody actually says those things
and in this case, clay.
I mean, nobody could say something
that is at the same
time both racist and dumb, surely.
>> [LAUGH] I think you can't not
say something both racist and dumb.
Well, I'm thinking a couple things
one, this is a common thing that
I feel like people of color women
sexual minorities go through
whenever they mentioned that
something happened to them or might
have happened to them that was.
Racist or bigoted in whatever way
is that they get asked to prove it,
and in this case, this isn't them
being put on trial or
it's a due process thing.
It's I'm sharing my feelings.
I'm sharing what happened to me.
I'm sharing my experience,
living in this.
History In this role that, is so
strange for most people,
especially in uniquely
if you're a person of color.
And so, for Ben Shapiro to sort of
come at that interview with this
kind of prove it mentality or
say more name, the name,
it's pretty typical and I feel like
it's just insensitive to what
was happening in that moment.
The other thing is and
this is just my opinion has is
everything I say here.
I think that we have to stop
letting white people use
their feelings as the arbiter of
whether or not racism has occurred.
Right, this idea that it didn't
feel racist to me or
I didn't see that racism or who
would ever say something like that?
Well, that's
not your lived experience.
That's nobody's going to say that
to you.
In particular, so, of course you
haven't heard that and of course,
it seems unrealistic but
this idea that Ben Shapiro of all
people, [LAUGH] All white people
would be saying, that doesn't feel
like something somebody would say.
I feel like is pretty is pretty
ridiculous on the face of itself.
And I think it's a bad lesson for
how racism should be met.
And it's not even always that when
somebody is describing something
that they feel like may have been
racist.
I tell my students all the time,
the most powerful privilege that
folks have, whether it be gender,
race or sexuality is not having to
question not having to worry about
whether or
not the things that are happening
to them are due to their race,
gender or whatever the end, right.
You don't have to question
these interactions in that way.
You can generally be sure that
what's happening to you is due to,
some individual characteristic or
something that you set up yourself.
For folks of color women, all these
other minorities don't necessarily
have that in all situations here.
I think you've seen Meghan, she's
saying something that if somebody
says that that's overtly racist,
but whether or not whether even if
it was insinuated whether or not
that was the feeling she got and
not to doubt her what she's saying
there, but even if that's just
the feeling it's not appropriate,
I think really for for
avenger hero of all people to say.
Well I don't think that happened.
>> Yeah.
Nothing >> Yeah Yeah, well,
you're you're a writer so
you know that every scene should
accomplish at least two objectives.
And so what I love is that it's
very efficient.
We just saw there
he is simultaneously saying
that racism doesn't exist
because it would be stupid.
He's also leading his audience
that's probably 99% white in
like just loving the hate
this lying black woman, like but
racism doesn't exist.
So the one of the reasons that
I wanted to talk about this
though was,
I don't know exactly what it is
that I'm sort of trying to identify
this new strain in the right wing
that I've seen now on him.
I've seen it in Tucker Carlson.
I've seen it Laura and
Grimm, where.
They are denying a thing exists,
to their audience that is far more
likely than on average to be a part
of that thing or believe that thing
and let me define what I mean.
So, he's saying racism doesn't
exist to an audience that knows
what they think about black people
like they may not want to think
about it too much and so it's
convenient to have someone like Ben
Shapiro say, racism doesn't exist.
If it does, you don't have to
worry about it.
But other examples include Tucker
Carlson doing a whole section on
his show saying, we looked for
Q anon online and couldn't find its
website Q anon doesn't exist.
Even though many people in this
audience believe in Q anon,
Laura Ingram did the same thing
like, they're watching this
show being told by someone they
trust implicitly that
a thing doesn't exist that they
themselves associate with.
And seemingly,
this doesn't cause any sort of
cognitive distress to them.
They seem to almost like it and
I don't understand what
is being done here.
What the purpose psychologically,
of this sort of misinformation or
manipulation of your audience that
they seem to like I
just don't understand what it is.
>> Yeah, I mean, for me, it feels
like a bit of, kind of classic
politics mixed with dog whistles.
Right?
Because the classic politics piece
is I feel like the folks watching
that are saying yeah, good thing to
say that'll throw them off.
It's kind of a play, right?
With that was a good play whether
or not it's true.
Is this going to anger the left
door lead them astray or give us
some cover for our feelings,
conscious or unconscious.
And so again, there's that piece
and then the dog whistle of we're
talking about this,
we're saying nasty things about,
black folks people of color, women.
We're saying them, but we're just
saying it about this particular
person, so it's not racist.
And meanwhile,
we're also denying racism.
So good play, right?
And so it's this kind of weird
mental gymnastics where they're
having their cake and
eating it too, right?
They're getting to call out I was
just thinking today.
I mean, I hope I don't
go on too much off the table.
But I was just thinking
today, right?
All of the,
like conservative villains are,
are women and people of color.
Like even Joe Biden isn't
really a bill.
>> Generally.
>> But Kamala Harris's, right.
And so >> Hillary was yeah.
>> They get to sort of pick and
choose these very particular
minorities that they go after.
While at the same time saying no
but we like this particular black
person and we like this particular
one is spouting our voice.
So I don't know.
It's weird, but
they do seem to enjoy it.
I agree. >> It's where and
I'm sure I'm probably putting too
much mental effort into something
that either doesn't
matter is interesting.
So I apologize but
like it would be I'm trying to come
up with like an example of what if
I were to do something like this,
it would be one thing.
If I were to tell my audience,
knowing what I know about the
audience, if I were to lie to them
about something and says it's not
there that might be true of them.
So for instance, if I were to say,
this idea that any leftist could be
misogynistic or racist,
it's not true.
I can understand why someone in my
position might lie to the audience
because first of all,
they're definitely leftists who
are misogynistic and racist.
But that's uncomfortable.
You might want to pretend that
that's not true.
I get that.
But it would be like if I told my
audience nobody wants to cancel
student loan debt no progressive
wants that no progressive wants
Medicare for all, but you
are watching it and you want that.
Like, why am I lying to you but
something you know is true and
that you like that.
It's true.
I'm sure that there's many people
who aren't racist that think, well,
I bet most racists are really
ashamed about it and maybe some
racists are ashamed about it, but
some are not ashamed about it.
For some of them is their favorite
thing about themselves that they
are racist.
[LAUGH] >> So,
I don't know, the whole thing just
blows my mind constantly.
>> Well, I I'm sure this is true of
Democrats too.
And I feel like I've been talking
about conservatives a lot.
I love conservative people a,
they have great barbecues and
I'm from the south, so.
>> [LAUGH] i have spit on my
clothes.
But I think, I don't know,
there's some sort of like mental
gymnastic that has to happen if you
want to talk for psychology for
ego feels saying it right.
That if you believe on
any level that racism or sexism or
locking children in cages or,
keeping out asylum seekers, like if
you believe on any level that
that is wrong, right if you believe
that those things are immoral or
unethical in some ways, but
you've also you also in some way,
don't want those people here,
maybe it's tribalism or racism or
whatever it is.
But somewhere inside of you,
you have this kind of tension.
Well, now you need to figure out
a way to want what you want,
which is to keep those people out,
but also, entertain this more
sophisticated part of yourself that
knows that those things are uncouth
and uncivil.
So, I think you get this weird
mixed up ness and I think some
folks, in particular, maybe
the people in power, kind of know
that they're playing both hands,
right that they're saying one thing
and feeling another or wanting
another was really stark to me.
A little tangent, and
they were voting on Liz Cheney and
what's her name and
the Republican caucus?
>> Yeah, >> By private vote and
it was really it was reasonable
when they did the process.
It wasn't like, kick out Liz Cheney
and, elevate this over a woman it
was relatively reasonable because
they got to hide behind.
Nobody has to see that I said this
or want this.
So, I don't know.
I just think I just think a lot of
conservatives or Republicans in
many cases I'm sure Democrats too.
Are really mixed up in how they
feel, and I think maybe in a deep
psychological level not like, you
need therapy, because you've got
a mental disorder, because you got
some stuff you need to untangle.
Otherwise I think they're just
trying to do their best in terms of
I believe this, but
I feel listened to.
So I'm going to watch Tucker
Carlson tell me how I can do both.
>> I agree.
Yeah.
Well, and especially,
like my belief is that a lot of
people in media, the one skill they
have is knowing more about what
their audience members want and
need than the audience members do,
like in manipulating that to
generate money.
So, Yeah.
I think that there's
Like this one of the reasons I want
you on the show all the time is
because I think you get that and
you can speak to that in a way
that most don't even acknowledge
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