﻿Mr SPEAKER: Question No 6, Hon Annette King.
Hon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader—Labour)
to the Minister of Health: What advice, if any,
did he receive on the “Better Public Services
"Seed Funding: Social Bonds Pilots”?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Health):
I have received a wide range of advice from Treasury,
the State Services Commission, and the Ministry of Health,
and I have got a feeling that I am about to receive
some more advice from the member.
Hon Annette King: Why has he not released the KPMG reports
into social impact bonds, in light of the United Kingdom’s
Peterborough prison pilot,
which his Government called a world leader,
but which was cut short and investors did not receive
a return on investment for the full contracted period?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: I think that is very much the point.
If these social bonds programmes do not deliver results,
then the investors do not get the return.
So there is no risk for the Government, because we are
contracting for results and we are saying that we will pay
when the results are delivered. If that happened in Peterborough,
I presume that the provider was not delivering—end of story.
Hon Annette King: Why has he chosen mental health sufferers
as guinea pigs for the Government experiment,
when the pilot programme, costing at least $1.13 million
from the health budget, did not recommend mental health
for social impact bonds, and the Dept of Internal Affairs report
commissioned by that department, which the Minister quoted—
but not all of it—said not to engage in trials or implementation
but to monitor overseas experience?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: First of all, these are social bond pilots.
The second thing is that we have not shied away from striving
to achieve results in areas that are very difficult
to make progress in. So that is why, with mental health clients,
we are determined to help them get back into work
where appropriate. I think that the Labour Party
should actually be getting behind this and giving us
a pat on the back, because we are going to contract
for outcomes that will make a real difference to the lives
of mental health patients, and I would ask what is wrong with that.
Barbara Stewart: Does this move not show a privatisation agenda
and a move towards an initial public offering,
as reported by Bloomberg in an article today?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: No.
Hon Annette King: Has anyone told him that funding for NGOs
providing mental health services in the community
has not increased for at least the past 5 years,
and this latest hare-brained scheme is nothing more
than privatisation dressed up as social investment?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: What they have told me
is that under this Government the funding is actually delivering
better results than ever. Unlike under the last Government,
which poured in more and more money but delivered no results,
we are actually making sure that money is guided
where it is needed. We are measuring results
and this is part of that. We are not going to pay for it
unless we achieve a result.
I know it is anathema to Mrs King, but that is a fact.
Hon Annette King: Is he aware that the barrier to getting
mental health sufferers into work now is prejudice,
so how do social bonds paying a profit to private investors
change that prejudice?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: That is very much the point:
there is prejudice. So we have to use innovative means
to actually overcome those barriers. The member would
prefer us to do nothing because actually she does not care
about employment outcomes for mental health clients. We do.
Hon Annette King: What is correct: when he said
that social impact bonds will focus on an area
where the Government is not currently active—
“So actually we’re not getting an employment outcome
"for people with mental health problems.”—
or when he said in the same interview “There’s been a very
"successful programme run partnering with a NGO
"to get people with mental health issues into work.
"It’s working.”?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: Listen to the context
of the whole interview. It all is correct and it all makes sense.
Go and have a listen to it again.
Hon Annette King: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.
I do not think that was an answer. “Just go and listen
"to the interview.” is hardly an answer.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
The member needs to listen to the answer that was given.
The question asked which was correct and the Minister answered
by saying both statements were correct.
Hon Annette King: How can it be?
Mr SPEAKER: That is the need for further supplementary questions.
Question No 7.
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