Charles welcome to Ballerina Book Club.
We're so excited to have you, and we are loving the book pick for
April Interior Chinatown, the winner of the National Book Award.
And I can't wait to ask you some questions.
Thanks so much for having me looking forward to it.
And thanks for picking the book.
So what was your creative process like for Interior Chinatown?
Do you start with a spark of an idea and expand it out from there?
Or do you have many iterations before the final draft?
I'd love to just hear more about your creative process
and how you fleshed it out from the initial idea.
You know, a little of both.
I had been working on the book for
a number of years actually, before
I stumbled on what ended up being the current form,
which is, you know, for those who haven't read it it's,
it's written as a screenplay or as a script basically.
But before, you know, I found that I was
kind of lost in the woods for a long time.
I didn't know how to write this.
And, and then when I think.
I had the inspiration for Willis Woo.
As an actor.
A lot of things flowed from that, you know, the idea
of doing this as a, kind of about a fictional show.
So, you know, process, you know, is basically something
like: get it all down as much as possible before
the idea goes away, you know, in the kind of rush of
excitement and then many, many iterations of trying
to refine it and expand it and find it from there.
It never feels like a process in the moment.
It just feels like chaos.
So your book has been lauded for its wit and humor, as well as its
sharp takes on Asian stereotypes found in Hollywood and beyond.
How do you go about approaching the themes in your book?
I think a lot was wrapped up in the, in the way I approached
it, which is part of why I was looking for the right
form for so long, you know, I think built into Willis's
predicament is so much about what, you know, the larger
themes of the book, which is just to sort of set the table.
Willis is his job, but also his identity
is to be generic Asian man number three.
That's sort of within the system where he lives.
He has a very minor role basically, and he's internalized this.
Kind of status to such an extent that he it's hard for him
to even sort of separate where he ends and where the role
begins and just putting a character in that situation.
And saying, okay, what would you do next?
What is, what is he going to do?
What does he want?
What does he dream about?
What is he afraid of?
You know, it all starts from Willis and
who he is and getting inside of his head.
And so to me that, that, you know, a lot of the
humor and the sadness and it just, he was the sort
of perfect person, you know, for, for me to sort of.
Imagine and flesh out this world.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And so you've had a very unique career trajectory.
I read in, sorry, if fact check me if any of this is wrong,
this is from the internet, but you studied microbiology.
Then you got a law degree and became a corporate
lawyer, and then you quit that to become a writer.
So of course not everyone is going to win a National
Book Award, but do you have any advice for someone who's
contemplating quitting their day job to follow a dream?
Yeah.
I did, you know, I had many former incarnations I in college
I was studying science and I sorta knew pretty early on
that I wasn't going to be a scientist or a doctor, but I
was trying to do the responsible thing and be a good son.
And my parents thought that would be a good thing for me to study,
but, you know I think going to law school was more of the same.
I, I felt like, well, I need to be self-sufficient
and I need to learn how to have a, a craft or a trade.
And so law was what I decided on.
Cause I thought, well, it's a lot of reading and writing
and I like reading and writing And, you know, for many
years I did, I wrote at night and on weekends while working
full-time and you know, my wife and I have two kids.
And so when they were babies, there
wasn't much time or energy left.
But there was something really liberating about knowing it was
just for myself that it was the thing I did, you know, in the dark.
I mean, sometimes, literally in the dark at night.
But also in a figurative sense, right.
Like for, for a while, even though like my boss and my friends
at work would sort of know that I was writing, but it did
feel like a secret identity, you know, like most people I con
you know, interacted with had no idea I love that about it.
It was just sort of like my private, like
this thing that I did my passion, really.
And so if, if, you know, for me, I feel like
not having those two things, my livelihood and
my passion, not having them be the same thing.
Even though there was tension, there was something freeing
about knowing, okay, this is really, really what I love.
It has been a little more complicated now
that I actually do what I love for living.
I don't know if you can identify with that or not.
I get what you're saying.
Like, I mean, that's so resonant, just like.
How liberated we'd feel if we were doing something
without any fear of judgment or, you know, live it,
having it live up to somebody as expectations, but
you're just like creating or interpreting for yourself.
Exactly.
For me, the, the grass was green.
I've seen both sides of it now.
And I see the benefits of the other side.
I now I wouldn't go back to it.
I mean, I feel incredibly fortunate that I get to write
for a living, but I do remember that there was, there
were good parts to the, to the time before, I guess.
And now I just appreciate the fact
that I do get to do this every day.
And I have to remind myself of that.
Like when I get stressed or busy, like,
Oh yeah, this is what you asked for.
Don't forget that.
Yeah, totally.
I love that.
Yeah.
I definitely think I've had my best shows when
I felt like the stakes were really low somehow.
It's like, I dunno.
It's harder to deliver sometimes when
there's a lot of pressure on you.
So other reviews I've read of your work have
been nothing less than glowing, but how do you
process criticism and or critics on Twitter?
I, yeah, there are definitely some less than going.
I, I have shouldn't admit this, but I
sometimes like to go on Goodreads and read the really bad review.
Why would you do that?
Yeah, it's it probably says, says a little
too much about me that I like doing that.
But you know, I, for me, it's like vital to see
when someone didn't connect with what I was doing.
It doesn't necessarily mean that I failed or that it just
means that either they didn't come to it on its terms.
And so they're sorta like, what am I reading?
Which I think is often if there's one particular sort of
commonality to a lot of the criticism, it's like, I thought
this would be one thing and it was really not that thing.
I don't like this and it's like, okay.
You know, you can only do so much.
I'm sorry.
But yeah, for me, it's one, it keeps me really humble
and two,, I think It just helps me see around my blind
spots, you know, which is the hardest thing to do as an
artist or a writer to remember your unconscious biases
and other things that you're just taking for granted.
So, yeah, I agree.
Well, that sounds like a really healthy approach to it.
I guess, like, I sometimes I find it's challenging to
separate like constructive criticism from, you know,
someone who might just like have some sort of personal
problem with you for whatever reason or I don't know.
It's yeah.
It's definitely, I think a process for any artists to just figure
out how they can like use criticism constructively without losing
the confidence to like create or perform or whatever it is.
Yeah, I, I hear you on that.
I feel like over time, I've sort of tried to develop this dual
thing of like having, it almost sounds like a contradiction,
but just like having a lot of internal confidence that.
I what I want to do if I do it right.
We'll find somebody, you know, we'll find
its audience and we'll connect with people.
And also knowing, and being, trying to be super open to really
harsh criticism and not being too precious about the work, even
when it feels personal, you know, even when the criticism feels
very personal, it's like, yeah, separating me from my work.
Oh, yeah, that's a really good point.
Oh, okay.
So you're also a writer on Westworld, which is so awesome.
How is writing for TV different than
writing for a novel or short story?
And also, how did your experience as a TV writer play
into the extremely unique structure of Interior Chinatown?
Yeah.
I wrote on the first season and it was, I mean, it was
an incredible thing, you know, I, I literally one week
I was at work, you know, in my office as a lawyer.
And then the next week I was driving up to Burbank and hanging
out in this writer's room and working on this huge show.
And you know, since then I've worked in quite a number of
other writers' rooms and gotten to see sort of a range of
styles, you know, and like how each show has its own process.
And.
What you're trying to do when you're in those
rooms is working right as a team, you know
it's a very collaborative act to make a TV.
And the conversations that we have in those rooms
it feels almost like soccer or something or hockey.
I don't know.
I don't play either.
I guess I played soccer as a kid, but it's sort of like a good pass
can sometimes be the thing that unlocks the goal.
You know, it's like the, you don't always know how one
idea can start to ping pong off everyone else's sort of
mind and lead to a really interesting place that we get to.
And so that's a really cool thing
that as a solitary fiction writer.
I had an experience, you know, that's
sort of time let's kick things around.
So that that's really neat.
And then I think the form of TV, like writing scripts,
trying to fit into, you know, this kind of template
and knowing you have certain constraints, right?
You have to write for actors.
It has to be filmable you know, you have to think
about like the realities of production, all of that.
You know, was kind of in my mind as I started to write the book.
So it was useful.
Yeah.
It's such a unique structure.
It's, I'm really enjoying it.
It's really, really cool.
What were your favorite books as a kid?
And what are your favorite books to read to your kids?
You have two kids, right?
Yes.
I have a daughter she's 13 and our son is 11.
And we.
You know, a couple of years ago, we started this thing where we
read together, out loud, you know, sporadically, it's not super
regular, but every week or so we would read a few pages together.
And the first book we read was actually
Animal Farm which it's a little heavy,
but.
I think it was funny because at first they were just giggling.
Cause they're like, are these animals really talking?
Like, what is this about?
And you know, like the pig is walking around and.
But it opened up this opportunity to like, talk about politics
and economics and just sort of like what I mean, not in those
terms necessarily, but like what, what did the pigs want?
What are the horses want?
You know, like what are the humans represent?
And so that was really eye opening.
We we've moved on since then for a couple of other books
and we sort of slowed down as they get busier with school.
But you know, it did, you know, it did kind of
give us a great opportunity to talk together.
We had our own little book club in our house.
Yeah, my son's really into all the Rick
Riordin books, the Percy Jackson series.
And he's moved on from that into
other myths, mythology based books.
So he's really into that.
And you know, when I was growing up, I read
I was a pretty, you know, I love to read.
I would read anything I've got my hands on.
I read, I read, I read comic books.
I read you know, I read some science fiction and fantasy.
I remember I loved the choose your own adventure books.
I don't know if if I'm dating myself, but like that, those,
I feel like those are new when I was in elementary school.
And there were just, you know, it was like
halfway between playing a game and reading a book.
And I remember there was this one book where one in that
series where no matter what you did, you would always like die.
You would always have a bad result.
There's like no way to win that one.
And I thought that was like both
really perverse, but also kind of cool.
Yeah.
Have you ever taken dance, any dance classes?
I have not.
I did take figure skating lessons for.
A couple of years.
I suspect, yeah, it was because my brother was actually
talented, but my mom felt bad that I would get to
do it too, but I was always very awkward on the ice.
Great.
That's very cool.
Interior Chinatown.
Cause we're obsessed with pasta at Ballerina
Book Club, if Interior Chinatown was the pasta.
What would it be?
This is an excellent question.
Wow.
I w I want to say Bolognese Oh, okay.
I, I, I'm not a cook at all, but I feel like somewhere
in the background of watching many hours of cooking
shows, my understanding is that you, you want to cook
everything in a bolognese until it sort of breaks down.
Right.
That, and so I feel like that's what I had to do.
I had to like, figure out what I was trying to do, put all these
ingredients in there and really give it such a long time to cook
that it turned into like one, I, you know, Very kind of rich.
Very
cool.
Well, I think that that's an accurate description for sure.
What do you feel?
Maybe this is like a hard question for you to answer, but what
do you feel like the legacy of Interior Chinatown will be?
And do you feel like Hollywood and America are listening?
I think, you know, to take the second part first, I think they're
listening for now sadly because of recent events which, you
know, are obviously important, but I feel like In a lot of ways
or just the extension of things that have been going on for a
long time, you know, which is that Asian Americans and Pacific
Islanders have been marginalized along with many other groups.
And so for now, while we have a platform and a receptive
audience, I think it's very important to try to, you know,
encourage and, and amplify the voices of, you know, other other.
Authors and storytellers, you know, and artists I
don't know, you know, what the, the legacy will be.
I, to me, I have had the opportunity speak with the
number of schools, you know, since the book came out and
especially since the fall and the book got more attention
through the National Book Award and that's always super
gratifying, but also weird to realize, you know, college
students, some high school students, even some like.
Like sort of middle school students have,
you know, I've been reading it, I guess.
And yeah, that's weird to think about it's like in a few years.
Oh, cool.
I wish I read this book in school.
Both dread, but also look forward to the day when
one of my children has to read my work on a syllabus.
Like they're going to come home so mad.
I'm sure.
I don't know if that'll ever happen, but yeah.
Thank you so much for that.
And then, yeah, last question.
What are you currently working on?
Well, I'm working a lot on the adaptation
of Interior Chinatown for, for TV.
So, so we'll see if that, if I can figure out how to do it.
So it's a show, but, that's.
Yeah.
And then I, you know, I still always writing fiction, but
I don't know if, and when I'll ever finish another book.
I'm sure you will when the time is right.
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much.
I just, your book, like it's really resonant and beautiful
and thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
Thanks for picking it.
Thanks for reading it.
Well, thank you.
Have a wonderful day and thank you.
Thank you to your family for lending you for the day.
Sure.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Nice to meet you both.