♪
>>> ADMITTEDLY, IT IS ALWAYS A BIT HARD TO TELL WHEN THE
PRESIDENT ENGAGES IN AN OUTBURST
THAT AGREES WITH AN EMOTIONALLY
INCONTINENT FOX NEWS VIEWER THAT
LIKES TO TALK BACK TO THE
TELEVISION VERSUS HOW MUCH HE’S
TRYING A NEW POLITICAL STRATEGY.
ONE TENDENCY THAT HAS DEVELOPED
AMONG DEMOCRATS AND NOT
COMPLETELY WITHOUT WORRY THAT
ENGAGING TRUMP WITH THE FIGHTS
THAT HE PICKS IS ENGAGING HIM ON
HIS OWN TURF.
THE RACIST INVECTIVE WE SEE FROM
HIM IS NOT POPULAR WITH AMERICAN
VOTERS.
VOTERS. A RECENT POLL FOUND THAT
REGISTERED VOTERS MASSIVELY
DISAPPROVE OF HIS HANDLING OF
RACE RELATIONS WITH TRUMP 25
PERCENTAGE POINTS UNDERWATER.
LAST WEEK, ANTI-RACISM EDUCATOR
TIM WISE WROTE ABOUT HIS TIME
WORKING TO DEFEAT DAVID DUKE
WHEN THE FORMER KKK GRAND WIZARD
WAS RUNNING FOR SENATOR AND
GOVERNOR OF LOUISIANA ON THE GOP
TICKET IN THE EARLY 1990s.
MAINSTREAM DEMOCRATIC
MAINSTREAM DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANTS URGED THE ANTI-DUKE
PAC THAT HE WORKED FOR NOT TO
JUST FOCUS ON RACISM, SAYING
THAT DOING SO PLAYED INTO DUKE’S
HANDS, ALLOWED HIM TO SET THE
AGENDA.
AGENDA. THE LESSON THAT TIM DREW WAS
FOCUSES ON THE RACISM WAS THE
BEST WAY TO BEAT TRUMP IN 2020,
THE SAME WAY HE HELPED BEAT
TRUMP IN 1991.
TIM WISE JOINS ME NOW ALONG WITH
A STAFF WRITER AT "THE ATLANTIC"
WHO HAS WRITTEN ABOUT THE
UNPRECEDENTED DANGER TO THE CORE
OF AMERICA -- IT’S NOT A MORAL
CHOICE.
CHOICE. I THINK EVERYONE WAS VERY CLEAR
ABOUT WHO DAVID DUKE IS, RIGHT?
SO THE QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU
BEAT DAVID DUKE IN THE STATE OF
LOUISIANA?
LOUISIANA? WHAT KIND OF RACE DO YOU RUN
AGAINST HIM AND THE SORT OF
TACTICAL DECISIONS THAT WERE
MADE WHEN YOU WERE WORKING ON
THAT RACE?
THAT RACE? >> WELL, THE KEY IS WHEN YOU’RE
RUNNING AGAINST SOMEBODY OR WHEN
YOU’RE WORKING AGAINST SOMEBODY
WHOSE ENTIRE PUBLICOLITIC IS A
POLITIC OF RACIAL SCAPEGOATING
AND PREJUDICE, TO NOT TALK
THINGS NOT DIRECTLY CONNECTED IS
TO NORMALIZE AND TO TREAT HIM
LIKE A NORMAL CANDIDATE.
UNFORTUNATELY, IN 1990 WHEN DUKE
RAN FOR THE SENATE WE DID HAVE
THESE CONSULTANTS AND SOME
CONSERVATIVES WITHIN OUR OWN
COALITION THAT WERE
UNCOMFORTABLE CALLING OUT THE
MODERN RACISM.
MODERN RACISM. WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE KLAN, YES,
THE NAZI STUFF, YES, BUT WE
WEREN’T SUPPOSED TO TALK ABOUT
HOW HE WAS SCAPEGOATING BLACK
AND BROWN FOLKS FOR PROBLEMS
THEY DIDN’T CREATE BECAUSE THAT
WOULD SOMEHOW SPUR A BACKLASH.
SO THE FIRST ELECTION WE DIDN’T
PUSH HARD ENOUGH ON THAT.
WE MIXED THINGS UP WITH OTHER
THINGS.
THINGS. IN THE GOVERNOR’S RACE IN ’91,
WE DRILLED DOWN MUCH MORE
CLEARLY, TALKED ABOUT THIS AS A
MORAL CHOICE, TALKED ABOUT
DUKISM AS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT
TO THE STATE AND THE VALUES WE
HELD DEAR AND AS A RESULT WERE
ABLE TO GET THE KIND OF
COALITION, THE BASE VOTERS FOR
DEMOCRATS, ABSOLUTELY THEIR
TURNOUT WENT THROUGH THE ROOF,
SO DID REASONABLE MODERATES,
REPUBLICANS AND INDEPENDENTS.
THAT’S WHAT NEEDED.
IT ISN’T ENOUGH TO BEAT TRUMP
THE MAN.
THE MAN. TRUMPISM AS AN IDEOLOGY HAS TO
BE DEALT A REPUDIATION.
>> ADAM, YOU SEE THE SAVVY TAKES
THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY SMART
STRATEGY.
STRATEGY. WHICH I THINK IS A LITTLE BESIDE
THE POINT.
THE POINT. THERE IS THIS QUESTION, RIGHT,
DOES THIS WORK OR NOT?
IS THIS EFFECTIVE TO DO WHAT HE
WANTS TO DO?
I’M CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT
THAT.
THAT. IN SOME WAYS WHAT YOU WRITE
ABOUT IS THE HISTORY OF AMERICAN
POLITICS, THIS QUITE OFTEN IS
EFFECTIVE.
EFFECTIVE. >> WELL, I MEAN, I’M NOT A
POLITICAL STRATEGIST.
POLITICAL STRATEGIST. HISTORICALLY IT’S BEEN EFFECTIVE
AND IT’S BEEN EFFECTIVE FOR A
REASON THAT DUKE HIMSELF
IDENTIFIED IN THAT ’90 CAMPAIGN.
SO WHAT DUKE USED TO TELL HIS
VOTERS, HE USED TO SAY,
REMEMBER, WHEN THEY CALL ME
RACIST, THEY’RE REALLY TALKING
ABOUT YOU.
ABOUT YOU. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. >> AND THAT’S IMPORTANT BECAUSE
THAT’S -- THAT’S WHAT TRUMP IS
BANKING ON.
BANKING ON. >> YEP.
>> YEP. >> TRUMP IS INVITING THESE
ACCUSATIONS OF RACISM BECAUSE HE
BELIEVES THAT HIS VOTERS WILL
TAKE IT AS AN ATTACK ON THEM AND
TURN OUT IN THE NUMBERS HE NEEDS
TO OVERWHELM HIS WEAKNESSES.
AND I THINK THAT’S A REAL
DANGER.
DANGER. BUT I ALSO WANT TO POINT OUT
THAT ONE PERSON WHO REALLY
CLOSELY WATCHED THAT ’90 DUKE
CAMPAIGN WAS DONALD TRUMP.
AND HE SAID AT THE TIME, YOU
KNOW, YOU CAN SAY WHAT YOU WANT
ABOUT DAVID DUKE, BUT THE KINDS
OF THINGS HE’S TALKING ABOUT
APPEAL TO A LOT OF REPUBLICANS
AND IF HE RAN FOR PRESIDENT,
HE’D GET A LOT OF VOTES.
YOU KNOW, 30 YEARS LATER HE’S
PRETENDING HE DOESN’T KNOW WHO
DAVID DUKE IS.
>> WOW.
>> WOW. YEAH, THERE WAS A REMARKABLE
MOMENT WHERE HE WAS ASKED TO
SORT OF DENOUNCE DUKE ON CAMERA
AND HE SAID, WHO IS THIS DAVID
DUKE?
DUKE? >> HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHO DAVID
DUKE WAS BECAUSE HE’S RUNNING
HIS ’90 CAMPAIGN AND HE’S GOING
TO DO IT AGAIN IN 2020 AND HE’S
GOING TO COUNT ON THE INJURED
FEELINGS OF HIS VOTERS.
>> THAT’S A GREAT POINT.
>> HE’S COUNTING ON THEM FEELING
UNDER SIEGE FROM CRITICISMS FROM
DEMOCRATS ON TRUMP’S RECORD ON
RACE.
RACE. >> THEY ALREADY DO.
>> TO EMPOWER THEM TO THE POLLS.
THEY ALREADY DO.
IT’S TRUE.
IT’S TRUE. I CAN’T TELL YOU WHETHER THIS
STRATEGY IS GOING TO WORK.
I CAN TELL YOU THAT IT’S NOT
MAGIC.
MAGIC. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> IT’S NOT GENIUS.
IT IS OLDEST TYPE OF POLITICS IN
AMERICAN HISTORY.
AMERICAN HISTORY. >> YEAH, IT’S LITERALLY, LIKE,
THE OLDEST KIND OF POLITICS THE
COUNTRY HAS.
COUNTRY HAS. THERE IS A QUESTION, TIM, I
MEAN, AGAIN, WE DON’T KNOW,
RIGHT?
RIGHT? >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> WE DON’T KNOW WHAT IT DOES.
BUT IT ALSO IS THE CASE THAT,
LIKE, IT DOES TURN SOME PEOPLE
OFF.
OFF. AND NOT JUST PEOPLE OF COLOR.
LIKE, THERE ARE -- IT IS -- IT
IS A WAY OF JUICING TURNOUT
AMONG SOME FOLKS BUT THERE ARE
COSTS TO IT.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> I FEEL LIKE SOMETIMES THE
STRATEGIC TAKES LOSE SIGHT OF
THAT WHICH IS SOMETHING YOUR
EXPERIENCE IN THE DUKE CAMPAIGN
SUGGESTS IS A REAL THING.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. I MEAN, HERE’S THE THING.
THOSE OF US WHO ARE PROGRESSIVE
NEVER TIRE OF TELLING PEOPLE
THAT THIS IS A CENTER-LEFT
NATION, MOSTLY PROGRESSIVE.
WELL, LET’S PUT THAT TO THE
TEST.
TEST. I BELIEVE THAT.
WHAT COULD BE A MORE PROGRESSIVE
VALUE THAN PLURALISM AND
MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY?
MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY? I’M WILLING TO BET EVERYTHING ON
THE IDEA THERE ARE MORE OF US
THAN THERE ARE THEM.
SO LET’S START ACTING LIKE IT
AND DEMAND A REPUDIATION OF
TRUMPISM AS A RESULT.
>> I THINK THAT’S THE QUESTION
THE DILEMMA IN SOME WAYS FOR
DEMOCRATS, RIGHT, ADAM?
I THINK YOU SAW IT IN THE VERY
THOUGHTFUL OF TWO MINDS.
THIS IDEA OF HIM CONTROLLING THE
CONVERSATION SO THE PRESIDENT
SAYS SOMETHING DISGUSTING AND
RACIST AND I’M SEEING FACT
CHECKS ABOUT THE CITY OF
BALTIMORE.
BALTIMORE. THAT’S NOT THE POINT.
>> WELL, THE ISSUE HERE IS
REALLY THAT, I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK
AT 2016 AND 2018, A MAJORITY OF
THE COUNTRY REJECTED THIS STUFF.
>> YES.
>> YES. CORRECT.
CORRECT. >> TRUMP WENT HARD ON IT IN 2016
AND MOST AMERICANS VOTED FOR THE
OTHER CANDIDATE.
OTHER CANDIDATE. HE WENT EVEN HARDER ON IT IN
2018.
2018. AND HE LOST THE HOUSE.
THE PROBLEM IS IS THAT HIS
COALITION IS IDEALLY
GEOGRAPHICALLY --
GEOGRAPHICALLY -- >> CORRECT.
>> CORRECT. >> DISTRIBUTED.
>> DISTRIBUTED. WHICH MAKES IT DIFFICULT BECAUSE
DEMOCRATS HAVE TO APPEAL NOT TO
-- IT’S NOT SO MUCH THAT THE
PEOPLE ON THE COASTS THAT THEY
HAVE TO WIN, IT’S THESE PEOPLE
IN THE MIDDLE WHO MIGHT BE MORE
INCLINED TO FEEL INSULTED
DEPENDING ON HOW DEMOCRATS
APPROACH THE ISSUE.
THAT’S WHAT THEY’RE AFRAID OF.
>> IT’S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT
FROM THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE
STANDPOINT.
STANDPOINT. THE COALITION HAS THIS SORT OF
ADDED WIND AT ITS BACK BECAUSE
IT’S MATHEMATICALLY
IT’S MATHEMATICALLY OVERREPRESENTED IN THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE.
COLLEGE. >> BUT THEY ARE NOT A MAJORITY.
>> NO.
>> NO. TIM, I WANT TO PLAY TO GIVE YOU
TWO EXAMPLES OF ADS YOU HELPED
US FIND THAT SHOW THE DIFFERENT
APPROACHES OF DUKE.
I THOUGHT WERE ILLUMINATING,
CLARIFYING, PARTICULARLY WHEN
YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT 2020 WILL
LOOK LIKE TO THE DEGREE THE
PRESIDENT IS GOING TO KEEP
RAMPING THIS UP.
TAKE A LOOK.
>> THANK YOU AND WELCOME BACK TO
JABERWOCKY, THE GAME SHOW ALL
AMERICA LIKES TO WATCH.
>> PAUL, I’LL TRY TAX CHEATS FOR
200.
200. >> HE FAILED TO FILE STATE TAX
RETURNS FROM 1984 TO 1987.
>> ALLEN?
>> ALLEN? >> WHO IS DAVID DUKE?
>> I AM A NATIONAL SOCIALIST.
YOU CAN CALL ME A NAZI IF YOU
WISH.
WISH. IN 1976 HE ORGANIZED A SECRET
NAZI GROUP WHICH CALLED FOR THE
RELEASE OF ALL NAZI WAR
CRIMINALS.
CRIMINALS. >> ON ONE HAND, HE DIDN’T FILE
TAX RETURNS, ON THE OTHER HE’S
LITERALLY A DEVOTEE OF HITLER.
YOU CAN SEE WHICH ONE WAS MORE
POWERFUL.
POWERFUL. >> LET ME SAY, THAT FIRST AD,
THERE WERE REFERENCES IN THE
COURSE OF THAT ONE-MINUTE AD TO
HIS NAZIISM, BUT IT WAS AN
EXAMPLE OF HOW WE HAD TO
COMPROMISE NOT TO TREAD TOO
HEAVILY ON RACISM.
I THINK PEOPLE CONFUSED IT AND
SAID IF HE’S A NAZI, WHY ARE WE
TALKING ABOUT TAXES EXACTLY?
I THINK IF YOUR POLITIC IS ONE
OF DIVISION AND RACISM, LET’S
STAY FOCUSED ON THAT AND CALL
PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY STAND UP FOR
AMERICAN VALUES AND WHAT WE KNOW