>>> IMPEACH, NOW OR NEVER. LET’S PLAY "HARDBALL."
>>> GOOD EVENING
I’M CHRIS MATTHEWS IN
WASHINGTON
WASHINGTON THERE IS BREAKING NEWS RIGHT AT
THIS MOMENT.
THIS MOMENT. JUST MINUTES AGO HOUSE DEMOCRATS
CONCLUDED A CONFERENCE CALL
ABOUT THEIR STRATEGY MOVING
FORWARD IN THE WAKE OF ROBERT
MUELLER’S EXPLOSIVE REPORT
TO IMPEACH OR NOT TO IMPEACH,
THAT IS THE QUESTION FOR THOSE
LAWMAKERS WHO MUST NOW WEIGH THE
BULK OF THE EVIDENCE AGAINST THE
RISKS OF IMPEACHMENT
IF THEY DO IMPEACH, THE
REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED SENATE IS
UNLIKELY TO CONVICT THE
PRESIDENT AND REMOVE HIM FROM
OFFICE, BUT IF THEY DON’T
IMPEACH, DEMOCRATS WILL ABDICATE
A CLEAR CONSTITUTIONAL CHANCE TO
HOLD THIS PRESIDENT FULLY
ACCOUNTABLE.
ACCOUNTABLE. NOW NBC NEWS IS REPORTING
TONIGHT THAT DURING TONIGHT’S
CONFERENCE CALL CONGRESSWOMAN
VAL DEMINGS OF FLORIDA IMPLORED
HER COLLEAGUES TO ACT, SAYING I
BELIEVE WE HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE
NOW.
NOW. WELL, DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP,
HOWEVER, SEEMED TO FAVOR MORE
CAUTIOUS APPROACH.
CAUTIOUS APPROACH. ACCORDING TO POLITICO, SPEAKER
NANCY PELOSI TOLD HER COLLEAGUES
ON THAT CALL "WE AREN’T GOING TO
GO FASTER, WE ARE GOING TO GO AS
FAST AS THE FACTS TAKE US.
THIS COMES AFTER PELOSI
ACKNOWLEDGED THE DIVISION
AMONGST HER CAUCUS ON
IMPEACHMENT IN A LETTER TODAY.
ARGUING THE FACTS CAN BE GAINED
OUTSIDE THE IMPEACHMENT
HEARINGS
HEARINGS THAT’S AN ARGUMENT
WE’LL SEE IF IT’S TRUE
THIS COMES AFTER THE DEMOCRATIC
CHAIRMEN OF THREE POWERFUL
COMMITTEES EXPRESSED SIMILAR
CAUTION WHEN CONFRONTED WITH THE
QUESTION OF IMPEACHMENT ON THE
SUNDAY TALK SHOWS.
>> WE MAY GET TO THAT.
WE MAY NOT
AS I SAID BEFORE, IT IS OUR JOB
TO GO -- TO GO THROUGH ALL THE
EVIDENCE.
EVIDENCE. >> DO YOU THINK THIS IS
IMPEACHABLE?
IMPEACHABLE? >> YEAH, I DO.
I DO THINK THAT THIS -- IF
PROVEN, IF PROVEN, WHICH HASN’T
BEEN PROVEN YET, SOME OF THIS --
IF PROVEN, SOME OF THIS WOULD BE
IMPEACHABLE, YES.
IMPEACHABLE, YES. >> I’M NOT THERE YET, BUT I CAN
FORESEE THAT POSSIBLY COMING
BUT, AGAIN, THE FACT IS IS THAT
I THINK WE HAVE TO DO -- BE VERY
CAREFUL HERE.
CAREFUL HERE. >> IMPEACHMENT IS LIKELY TO BE
UNSUCCESSFUL
UNSUCCESSFUL NOW, IT MAY BE THAT WE UNDERTAKE
AN IMPEACHMENT NONETHELESS
I THINK WHAT WE ARE GOING TO
HAVE TO DECIDE AS A CAUCUS IS
WHAT IS THE BEST THING FOR THE
COUNTRY?
COUNTRY? >> WELL, DESPITE THE DAMNING
REVELATIONS THAT MUELLER’S
REPORT CENTERED ON OBSTRUCTION
OF JUSTICE, THE PRESIDENT SAID
HE’S NOT CONCERNED ABOUT
POSSIBLE IMPEACHMENT
POSSIBLE IMPEACHMENT HERE IS TRUMP AT THE WHITE HOUSE
EASTER EGG ROLL TODAY.
>> ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT
IMPEACHMENT, MR. PRESIDENT
>> NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT
>> TRUMP ALSO TWEETED THIS
MORNING THAT, "ONLY HIGH CRIMES
AND MISDEMEANORS CAN LEAD TO
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. THERE WERE NO CRIMES BY ME, SO
YOU CAN’T IMPEACH.
IT WAS THE DEMOCRATS WHO
COMMITTED THE CRIMES."
SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU OPEN
HIM UP
HIM UP YOU DON’T GO ON OFFENSE, HE
DOES
DOES NOT YOUR REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT.
A REUTERS POLL CONDUCTED IN THE
WAKE OF THE MUELLER REPORT,
TRUMP’S APPROVAL RATING HAS
CROPPED TO THE LOWEST OF THIS
YEAR
YEAR JUST 37% OF AMERICANS SAY THEY
APPROVE OF HIS PERFORMANCE AS
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. I’M JOINED BY U.S. CONGRESSMAN
RO KHANNA ON CALIFORNIA.
JOYCE VANCE, FORMER FEDERAL
PROSECUTOR
PROSECUTOR PETER BAKER, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE
CORRESPONDENT FOR "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" AND LEIGH ANN CALDWELL
COVERS CONGRESS FOR NBC NEWS
LEIGH ANN, GIVE US A SENSE, HOW
DID IT GO WITH THE SPEAKER
SAYING LET’S NOT GO WITH
IMPEACHMENT OR THE BACK
BENCHERS, WHO IS WINNING
>> THAT’S A GOOD WAY TO PUT IT,
CHRIS.
CHRIS. SO THERE DOES SEEM TO BE A MOOD
SHIFT AMONG HOUSE DEMOCRATS ON
THE ISSUE OF IMPEACHMENT AND
ALSO ON THESE INVESTIGATIONS
SINCE THE MUELLER REPORT HAS
COME OUT
COME OUT I’M TOLD BY TWO SOURCES WHO WERE
ON THE CALL THAT EVERYONE WAS
VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE STATUS
OF THE COUNTRY AND THE WAY THAT
THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN ACTING.
AND SO THERE IS A SHIFT IN THE
APPETITE FOR CONTINUING
INVESTIGATIONS, BUT WE DON’T YET
SEE ANY TALK OF IMPEACHMENT FROM
THE LEADERSHIP, AND THAT’S WHERE
IT REALLY MATTERS.
THE CHAIRMAN OF SIX IMPORTANT
COMMITTEES WENT THROUGH LINE BY
LINE ON WHAT THEY WERE
INVESTIGATING AND WERE GOING TO
CONTINUE TO INVESTIGATE, AND
THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO USE
EVERY SINGLE TOOL IN THEIR
ARSENAL.
ARSENAL. THEY’RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO
CONDUCT THESE INVESTIGATIONS,
BUT THEY DID NOT SAY THAT THEY
WERE GOING TO START IMPEACHMENT
PROCEEDINGS JUST YET, CHRIS.
>> WELL, DID THE USUAL PEOPLE
WHO ARE BACK BENCHERS, THE YOUNG
MEMBERS, MANY OF COLOR WHO CAME
INTO THE CONGRESS, YOU KNOW, AOC
AND OTHERS AND PRESLEY, DID THEY
MAKE STATEMENTS TODAY ON THAT
CONFERENCE CALL FOR IMPEACHMENT?
>> NOT THAT I’M AWARE OF
I WAS TOLD ABOUT FIVE OR SIX
MEMBERS DID SPEAK UP, AND THERE
WERE A COUPLE OF MEMBERS WHO DID
SAY THEY SUPPORTED IMPEACHMENT
YOU MENTIONED VAL DEMINGS OF
FLORIDA.
FLORIDA. SHE SAID SHE’S BEEN IN LAW
ENFORCEMENT FOR 27 YEARS AND THE
FACTS ARE EVIDENT THAT
IMPEACHMENT IS POSSIBLE NOW.
SHE REALLY URGED NOT WAITING,
JUST MOVING FORWARD ON IT AS WE
SPEAK.
SPEAK. THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER MEMBER,
REPRESENTATIVE HUFFMAN OF
CALIFORNIA, AND HE URGED
DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP TO TALK
ABOUT THE DANGER OF NOT
IMPEACHING
IMPEACHING SO HE SAID THAT THE MESSAGING
AROUND THE DEMOCRATS SHOULDN’T
BE DO WE IMPEACH OR NOT BUT MAKE
THE CASE TO THE PUBLIC THAT IT’S
MORE IMPORTANT TO IMPEACH THAN
TO NOT IMPEACH, CHRIS.
>> THANKS FOR THE GREAT
REPORTING.
REPORTING. I LOVE ON-SITE REPORTING
GREAT FOR YOU BEING THERE AND
GETTING THE INFORMATION.
LET ME BRING IN CONGRESSMAN RO
KHANNA
KHANNA YOU WERE ON THAT CALL.
HOW IS YOUR READING?
HAS PELOSI GOT THE REINS OF OUR
CAUCUS AND SAYING NOT NOW AND
WIELDING THAT POWER AGAINST
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. IS SHE THERE
>> SHE DOES, BUT I THINK HER
TONE HAS ALSO SHIFTED POST THE
MUELLER REPORT
MUELLER REPORT SHE’S ALSO NOW TALKING ABOUT OUR
DUTY TO INVESTIGATE THIS
SHE’S TALKING ABOUT THE URGENCY.
SHE’S SAYING LET THE FACTS LEAD
WHERE THEY MAY AND LET’S HAVE A
STRONG PUBLIC PRESENTATION TO
THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
>> YEAH, BUT WHAT’S THAT
>> WELL, LOOK, EVEN DURING
WATERGATE IT TOOK A LONG TIME
BEFORE PUBLIC OPINION CHANGED.
>> OKAY, CONGRESSMAN
YOU’RE A POLITICIAN.
I’M WATCHING YOU
I WILL SAY THIS.
NOW OR NEVER
DON’T TELL ME SOME TIME THIS
SUMMER AFTER THEY HEAR FROM
MUELLER AGAIN AND THEY HEAR FROM
BARR AGAIN AND, OH, DON WHAT’S
HIS DMAM,NAME, McGRAW OR McGAHN
YOU DON’T THINK THAT’S GOING TO
CHANGE WHAT YOU DON’T WANT TO DO
NOW?
NOW? I DON’T WANT TO DIVE IN THE
POOL.
POOL. >> I THINK MUELLER’S TESTIMONY
COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
>> COULD
>> COULD DO YOU THINK IT’S PROBABLE OR
PLAUSIBLE.
PLAUSIBLE. >> WE JUST GOT THE MUELLER
REPORT A WEEK AGO.
>> YOU’RE NICE TO COME IN.
I THINK THE WHOLE CAUCUS DECIDED
NOT TO IMPEACH
IF YOU’RE NOT GOING TO DO IT
NOW, YOU’RE NOT GOING TO DO IT
IN THREE MONTHS OR SIX MONTHS.
THE REDACTED LITTLE INFORMATION
IS GOING TO CHANGE YOU FROM
NOTHING TO IMPEACH THE GUY
>> I THINK IT’S IMPORTANT FOR
THE COMMITTEES TO DO THEIR WORK
AND ISSUE REPORTS.
>> REUTERS ALSO FINDS, THESE ARE
INTERESTING NUMBERS TO TAKE HOME
WITH YOU TONIGHT
67% OF DEMOCRATS, REGULAR
PEOPLE, SAY HE SHOULD BE
IMPEACHED.
IMPEACHED. 2/3.
2/3. 75% OF DEMOCRATS
THIS IS COMING AFTER THE MUELLER
RELEASE, QUIT, YOU’RE NOT WORTHY
TO BE PRESIDENT.
SO THAT’S THE BACKDROP I’M
LOOKING AT
LOOKING AT LET ME GO TO PETER BAKER ON
THIS
THIS THAT IS, OF COURSE, THE PEOPLE
OUT THERE, JUST THE PEOPLE, BUT
FOR SOME REASON THE POLITICAL
PEOPLE DON’T WANT TO GO RESPOND
TO THAT.
TO THAT. YOUR THOUGHTS, PETER
>> WELL, THE POLL YOU JUST CITED
SAYS 2/3 OF DEMOCRATS THINK HE
OUGHT TO BE IMPEACHED BUT YOU
NEED 2/3 OF DEMOCRATS AND
REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE TO
IMPEACH.
IMPEACH. THAT MEANS YOU NEED 20
REPUBLICAN SENATORS.
REPUBLICAN SENATORS. IT’S BEEN FOUR, FIVE DAYS SINCE
THE MUELLER REPORT CAME OUT AND
YOU HAVEN’T HEARD ONE REPUBLICAN
SUGGEST THEY’RE ANYWHERE CLOSE
TO THE IDEA OF SUPPORTING
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. FOR SPEAKER PELOSI, SHE’S
LOOKING AT THIS FROM A PRACTICAL
POINT OF VIEW.
DO YOU GO FORWARD WITH SOMETHING
THAT DOESN’T SEEM TO HAVE MUCH
CHANCE OF SUCCESS, SIMPLY ON THE
IDEA THAT THEY OUGHT TO DO IT
BECAUSE OF THE MATTER OF
PRINCIPLE AND RISK WHATEVER
POLITICAL BACKLASH THERE MIGHT
BE OR DO YOU LET THIS BE SETTLED AT
THE BALLOT BOX AND TRY TO BEAT
HIM, YOU KNOW, ON ISSUES LIKE
HEALTH CARE AND OTHER QUESTIONS?
THAT’S THE ARGUMENT YOU’RE
HEARING TAKE PLACE AMONGST THE
DEMOCRATS.
DEMOCRATS. >> PETER, I’M NOT HAPPY WITH THE
IDEA OF PARTISAN CHEERLEADER
IF YOU’RE RIGHT, THE POLITICS
SAY THE SMARTEST, SAFEST MOVE,
LIKE ALL THOSE DEMOCRATS WHO
VOTED FOR THE IRAQ WAR, THAT WAS
THE SMART MOVE
I’M SO SICK OF THE SMART MOVE.
BECAUSE INEVITABILITY THE SMART
MOVE LIKE IN "THE GODFATHER"
GETS YOU KILLED.
BECAUSE THE CLEVERNESS OF BEING
AGAINST IMPEACHMENT.
AGAINST IMPEACHMENT. YOU CAN IMPEACH WITH JUST A
MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE.
YOU CAN INDICT THIS GUY FOR
HISTORY.
HISTORY. PETER, AS A JOURNALIST, YOU
WRITE THE BIG STORY.
IF YOU’RE TRUMP, WOULD YOU
RATHER BE IMPEACHED THAN NOT OR
IN THE END IS HE JUST PLAYING A
GAME HERE?
GAME HERE? HE KNOWS IT LOOKS LIKE HELL IN
THE HISTORY BOOK TO BE
IMPEACHED.
IMPEACHED. I DON’T THINK BILL CLINTON BY
THE SECOND OR THIRD PARAGRAPH IN
HIS OBIT IS GOING TO SEE
IMPEACHED ALONG WITH ANDREW
JOHNSON.
JOHNSON. NOBODY LIKES BEING SMACKED BY
HISTORY IN THAT WAY.
TRUMP SAYS COME AT ME.
I THINK THE DEMOCRATS WOULD BE
SMART TO IMPEACH HIM
LET THE REPUBLICANS DEFEND THIS
KIND OF BEHAVIOR
THAT’S AN ARGUMENT
LET ME GO TO JOY VANCE HERE.
JOYCE, HIGH CRIMES AND
MISDEMEANORS IS ABOUT AS CLEAR A
PHRASE AS ROBERT MUELLER’S I’M
NOT GOING TO EXONERATE ON
OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE
IT SEEMS LIKE NOT ONLY THE
SPECIAL COUNSEL BUT THE FOUNDING
FATHERS LEFT US WITH AN
UNCERTAIN TRUMPET.
UNCERTAIN TRUMPET. WHAT THE HELL DOES HIGH CRIMES
AND MISDEMEANORS MEAN?
>> IT MEANS WHATEVER CONGRESS
WANTS IT TO MEAN, CHRIS.
SO YOU MAKE THIS REALLY GOOD
POINT, WHICH IS THAT IMPEACHMENT
IS ABOUT THE SAME THING AS
INDICTMENT
INDICTMENT MUELLER DOES AN INVESTIGATION
AND DECIDES WHETHER TO INDICT OR
NOT, BUT HE’S LOOKING AT VERY
LIMITED TOPICS
LIMITED TOPICS HE’S ONLY LOOKING AT WHETHER
THERE WAS A CONSPIRACY BETWEEN
THE CAMPAIGN AND THE RUSSIAN
GOVERNMENT AND WHETHER THERE WAS
OBSTRUCTION.
OBSTRUCTION. CONGRESS HAS A MUCH WIDER SCOPE
HERE.
HERE. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. >> THEY CAN DECIDE THAT JUST
ABOUT ANY ELEMENT OF CONDUCT IS
A HIGH CRIME AND MISDEMEANOR
SO LOTS OF INVESTIGATION, LOTS
OF OPPORTUNITY TO GET PEOPLE ON