RIGHT HERE ON "MORNING JOE" TO
CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT
THE SCIENCE BEHIND THIS
DECISION.
>>> NOW TO DEVELOPMENTS IN THE
MIDDLE EAST.
WHERE THOUSANDS OF ISRAELI
TROOPS ARE GATHERED AT THE GAZA
BORDER TODAY PREPARING FOR A
POSSIBLE GROUND INVASION OF THE
HAMAS-RULED TERRITORY.
THE VIOLENCE REACHED A NEW LEVEL
THIS MORNING, WITH ISRAEL
CARRYING OUT ITS MOST INTENSE
ATTACKS YET IN RESPONSE TO
PALESTINIAN MILITANTS FIRING
HUNDREDS OF ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL
SINCE WEDNESDAY NIGHT.
ISRAELI TANKS AND ARTILLERY
FIRED AT GAZA ON THE GROUND
WHERE AIR STRIKES AND ROCKET
ATTACKS CONTINUED FROM ABOVE.
IN A STATEMENT YESTERDAY, A
HAMAS SPOKESPERSON SAID BOMBING
ISRAEL WAS, QUOTE, EASIER FOR US
THAN DRINKING WATER.
ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN
NETANYAHU ALSO ADDRESSED THE
VIOLENCE, SAYING ISRAEL WOULD,
QUOTE, ACT WITH FULL FORCE
AGAINST ITS ENEMIES.
AT LEAST 119 PALESTINIANS AND
SEVEN ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN KILLED
IN THIS LATEST CONFLICT.
THE VICTIMS INCLUDE CHILDREN.
ISRAELI TROOPS HAVE NOT ENTERED
GAZA WITH FORCE SINCE A
TWO-MONTH WAR BACK IN 2014.
AND JOINING US NOW, FORMER NATO
SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER,
RETIRED FOUR-STAR NAVY ADMIRAL,
JAMES STAVRIDIS.
HE IS CHIEF INTERNATIONAL
SECURITY AND DIPLOMACY ANALYST
FOR NBC NEWS AND MSNBC.
ALSO WITH US, LONGTIME FOREIGN
CORRESPONDENT, MARTIN FLETCHER,
WHO IS REPORTING FOR NBC NEWS IN
TEL AVIV.
MARTIN, WE’LL START WITH YOU.
AND GIVE US THE VERY LATEST.
IT’S GOOD TO SEE YOU UPON VERY
TERRIBLE NEWS.
>> HEY, GOOD MORNING, MIKA, AND
ERVEL
EVERYBODY ELSE.
IT’S BEEN A TERRIBLE NIGHT HERE.
THERE WERE ABOUT 200 MISSILES
FIRED FROM GAZA INTO ISRAEL, AT
THE SAME TIME, ISRAEL HAS BEEN
ATTACKING, BOMBARDING GAZA,
ABOUT 150 FO FIGHTER JET ATTACKS
INSIDE GAZA.
THIS IS THE FIFTH STRAIGHT DAY
OF VERY, VERY SEVERE FIGHTING.
ISRAEL’S TARGETS SO FAR HAVE
BEEN MOSTLY HAMAS TARGETS,
THINGS LIKE HAMAS POLICE
STATIONS, MILITARY FACILITIES.
FACILITIES ARE THE PALESTINIANS
ARE MAKING THOSE LONG-RANGE
ROCKETS THAT THEY’RE HITTING
ISRAEL WITH.
BUT THERE WAS A NEW DEVELOPMENT
LAST NIGHT, THAT ISRAEL’S
TARGETED WHAT THEY CALLED THE
UNDERGROUND CITY OF GAZA.
THERE’S A WHOLE NETWORK, A VERY
SOPHISTICATED, COMPLEX, WARREN
OF TUNNELS UNDERNEATH THE CITY
OF GAZA THAT HAMAS HAS BEEN
BUILDING IN ORDER FOR -- FOR
THESE KIND OF MOMENTS, THEY HAVE
THEIR OPERATIONAL CONTROL
CENTERS THERE.
IT’S WHERE THEY STORE WEAPONS,
IT’S WHERE THEIR FIGHTERS CAN
MOVE AROUND THE CITY AT WILL,
UNDERGROUND, UNOBSTRUCTED BY
ISRAEL.
AT THE SAME TIME AS THIS IS
HAPPENING, ISRAEL IS BUILDING UP
ITS TROOPS ON THE GROUND.
THERE’S TWO INFANTRY BRIGADES,
ONE MECHANIZED BRIGADE AT THE
BORDER FENCE, WAITING FOR THE
ORDERS TO GO INTO GAZA.
I DON’T THINK AT THIS POINT
ANYONE REALLY THINKS THAT’S
GOING TO HAPPEN.
BUT WITH THAT WALL OF WORDS THAT
YOU MENTIONED, THE HOSTILITY
BETWEEN THE HAMAS SPOKESMAN AND
THE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU
BASICALLY SAYING, WE’RE GOING TO
GO ON WITH THIS FIGHTING AS LONG
AS WE NEED TO, EVERYONE IS
ASSUMING IT WILL GO ON UNTIL AT
LEAST THE MIDDLE OF NEXT WEEK.
AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE CAN’T
FORGET THE FIGHTING INSIDE
ISRAEL.
WHICH IS FAIRLY NEW.
LIKE THE WORST FIGHTING EVER
BETWEEN ISRAELI ARABS AND
ISRAELI JEWS INSIDE THE TOWNS OF
ISRAEL.
THIS IS A DEVELOPMENT THAT IS
NEW, VERY FRIGHTENING FOR
ISRAELIS, AND EVEN WHEN THE
FIGHTING IN GAZA ENDS, AS IT
WILL, BECAUSE AFTER ALL, THIS IS
ABOUT THE FIFTH OR SIXTH ROUND
OF FIGHTING BETWEEN HAMAS AND
ISRAEL, IT ALL ENDS AFTER A FEW
DAYS, THIS IS NEW, JEWS AND
ARABS FIGHTING IN ISRAELI
CITIES, THAT’S GOING TO BE TOUGH
TO GET THAT GENIE BACK IN THE
BOTTLE.
>> AND ADMIRAL STAVRIDIS, WHAT
ELSE IS NEW, ACCORDING TO OUR
GOOD FRIEND, DAVID IGNATIUS, IS
JUST HOW FRAGILE THE POLITICAL
SITUATION IS ON BOTH SIDES.
LET ME READ FROM DAVID’S COLUMN
THAT’S IN "THE WASHINGTON POST"
THIS MORNING.
WHAT FEELS DIFFERENT THIS TIME
IS THE FRAGILITY OF ISRAELI AND
PALESTINIAN POLITICS.
THE ISRAELI MILITARY IS AS
POWERFUL AS EVER, BUT THE
COUNTRY’S POLITICAL FABRIC HAS
FRAYED DURING RECENT YEARS OF
ELECTORAL IMPASSE AND INTERIM
GOVERNMENT.
THE PALESTINIAN POLITICAL MESS
IS EVEN WORSE.
THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS
CORRUPT AND FEEBLE.
POWER FLOES EVEN MORE TO HAMAS
MILITANTS, WHOSE MILITARY
STRATEGY IS TO TERRORIZE
CIVILIANS.
AND IF YOU DARE TALK ABOUT BOTH
SIDES IN ANY WAY, OF COURSE, YOU
GET VILLENIZED BY POLITICAL
FACTIONS ON BOTH SIDES.
BUT THE -- DAVID IS RIGHT,
THOUGH.
THE REALITY HERE IS, ADMIRAL,
THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS
FIGHTING FOR HIS POLITICAL LIFE.
HE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO NO
POLITICAL INCENTIVE TO BRING
THIS TO A PEACEFUL CONCLUSION.
AND YOU CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT
HAMAS, WHO TOOK CONTROL AND WERE
REVEALED TO BE HORRIBLE AT EVEN
RUNNING BASIC GOVERNMENT
SERVICES AND WERE CORRUPT AND
SO, THEY HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO
BACK DOWN EITHER.
INSTEAD, THEY HAVE INCENTIVE TO
SAY THAT WE CAN THROW MISSILES
AT ISRAELI CIVILIANS, LIKE
DRINKING WATER OR SOMETHING LIKE
THAT.
SO YOU HAVE A POLITICAL
SITUATION ON BOTH SIDES WHERE
NEITHER SIDE HAS ANY INCENTIVE
TO ACTUALLY PROTECT THE
CIVILIANS.
>> INDEED, JOE.
AND JUST TO PUT IT IN
PERSPECTIVE FOR AN AMERICAN
AUDIENCE, THESE NUMBERS SOUND
SMALL TO US, LIKE 120 PEOPLE,
150 PEOPLE KILLED.
REMEMBER, THE TOTAL POPULATION
HERE BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND
PALESTINIANS IS JUST OVER 10
MILLION.
SO THIS IS ALREADY A 9/11-LEVEL
EVENT IN THIS COUNTRY AND IN
THIS TERRITORY.
200 MILLION IN AMERICA WOULD BE
HEADED TO BOMB SHELTERS BASED ON
COMPARISONS OF POPULATION.
SO THIS IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT
UPTICK IN VIOLENCE.
AND YOU’RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
THE INCENTIVES ARE RUNNING IN
THE WRONG DIRECTION RIGHT NOW.
SO FOR NETANYAHU, HE WANTS TO
MAINTAIN HIS GRIP ON POWER.
AND HE CAN LOOK STRONG, SENDING
THE MILITARY FORWARD, FOR THE
HAMAS, THEY ARE SEEKING TO SHOW
THAT THE FATAH IN THE WEST BANK
ARE, AS YOU SAY, CORRUPT AND
INCOMPETENT.
WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN?
I THINK MARTIN IS RIGHT.
IT’S UNLIKELY WE’RE GOING TO SEE
AN ACTUAL INCURSION OF A
SIGNIFICANT GROUND FORCE INTO
GAZA.
THIS IS ONE OF THE DENSEST
PLACES ON THE EARTH.
THE U.S. MARINES, TOUGHEST OF
FIGHTING FORCES WILL TELL US,
THERE’S NOTHING WORSE THAN WHAT
THEY CALL THE THREE-BLOCK WAR.
FIGHTING IN VERY INTENSE, DENSE
SITUATIONS.
THERE’S AN UNDERGROUND NETWORK
OF TUNNELS, AS MARTIN INFORMED
US.
ALL OF THAT MITIGATES AGAINST AN
ACTUAL INVASION.
SO, BOTTOM LINE, WHAT SHOULD THE
U.S. BE DOING AT THIS POINT?
I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION HAS
GOT IT ABOUT RIGHT, WHICH IS,
NUMBER ONE, TO APPRECIATE THE
IMPORTANCE OF THIS, IN TERMS OF
LOCAL IMPACT.
NUMBER TWO IS TO PUSH HARD FOR
MEDIATION, PERHAPS GETTING THE
EGYPTIANS, THE JORDANIANS, OUR
CLOSE ARAB ALLIES INTO THAT
GAME.
AND ALSO, TRYING TO PLAY IT
RELATIVELY EVEN-HANDEDLY, BUT
RECOGNIZING THERE ARE 2,000
MISSILES THAT CAME OUT OF GAZA
AGAINST ISRAELI TARGETS.
THEY’RE NOT GOING TO SIMPLY SIT
BACK AND LET THAT OCCUR.
DARK DAYS AHEAD, UNFORTUNATELY.
>> MARTIN, YOU’VE BEEN COVERING
THIS CONFLICT FOR MANY YEARS.
YOU’VE SEEN IT ALL.
WHAT STRIKES YOU, BEYOND THE
FIGHTING, INTERNALLY,
MERCHANDISE OF ISRAEL, AMONG
ARABS AND JEWS.
WHAT STRIKES YOU AS DIFFERENT IN
TERMS OF THE CONDITIONS AROUND
THIS?
AND WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS
HEADING?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT’S UNCLEAR
WHERE IT’S HEADING.
THE DIFFERENCE THIS TIME, I
THINK, IS THAT THE ISRAELI/IR
RABE
ARABS HAVE BEEN RADICAL I’D IN
SENSE.
ISRAEL IS NOW HEADING MAYBE, GOD
FORBID, TO ITS FIFTH ELECTIONS.
FOUR ELECTIONS IN TWO YEARS.
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS
BASICALLY REMAINED IN POWER BY
WHIPPING UP THE RIGHT WING TO
VOTE FOR HIM.
AND THE ARABS ARE PART OF THE
WHIPPING BOYS.
THE ARABS HAVE BEEN RADICALIZED.
THEY HAVEN’T GOT JOBS, MANY OF
THEM.
THEY’RE YOUNG.
DON’T FORGET, THEY’RE EMERGING
FROM A YEAR AND A HALF OF COVID
ISOLATION.
THERE’S A LOT OF EXCITEMENT.
ALL OF THE MOBS THAT ARE
ATTACKING ISRAELI JEWS ARE YOUNG
PEOPLE.
AND ALL OF THOSE JEWISH MOBS
THAT ARE ATTACKING PALESTINIAN
ISRAELI ARABS, THEY’RE ALSO
YOUNG PEOPLE.
THIS IS A MOMENT OF TRUTH, IF
YOU WOULD LIKE, FOR THE FABRIC
OF ISRAELI SOCIETY.
THE EMPHASIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN
THIS VERY DIFFICULT DIEDVIDED
COUNTRY TO BRING TOGETHER JEWS
AND ARABS LIVE TOGETHER IN
PEACE.
AND IT’S FALLING APART RIGHT
NOW.
THE MAYOR OF ONE OF THE ISRAELI
JEWISH CITIES NEAR TELEA AVIV,
WE’RE APPROACHING STIFL WAR.
THIS IS A SUCCESS FOR HAMAS.
HAMAS HAS SUCCEEDED IN THIS
FIGHTING TO DIVIDE ISRAELI JEWS.
AND TO PICK UP WHAT YOU WERE
TALKING ABOUT, ANOTHER MAJOR
SUCCESS HERE ON THE OTHER SIDE
IS FOR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU,
WHO WAS IN GREAT DANGER OF BEING
THROWN OUT BY AN ANTI-NETANYAHU
COALITION THAT WAS BEGINNING TO
FORM, THE DEPENDENT ON ARAB
PARTY SUPPORT FOR THE
GOVERNMENT.
THEY WOULDN’T BE PART OF THE
GOVERNMENT, BUT THEY WOULD VOTE
FOR IT IN PARLIAMENT TO SUPPORT
IT.
NOW, THAT’S FALLING APART.
AND THE RIGHT-WING ELEMENT OF
THAT ANTI-NETANYAHU COALITION
HAS SAID, WE’RE NOT GOING THAT
DIRECTION.
WE WANT A PARTNERSHIP WITH
NETANYAHU AND WITH LIKUD.
SO THIS IS A MAJOR SUCCESS FOR
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.
>> YEAH, I MEAN, I DON’T THINK
IT CAN BE UNDERLINED ENOUGH.
THE WINNERS HERE ARE HAMAS.
THE WINNERS HERE ARE BENJAMIN
NETANYAHU, WHO WAS AGAIN, JUST
AS A REALITY, WHO WAS AFTER ALL
OF THESE ELECTORAL DRAWS,