- Today we are getting.
- [Announcer] Debunked.
- Since we are one of the best YouTube channels ever,
- [Announcer] Debunked.
- Okay, since we are like a YouTube channel (chuckles).
- We're like two of the hottest men.
- [Announcer] Debunked.
- Are we not hot?
(loudly laughing)
So last year we made a video called
"The only anti-aging cream that works!
"-according to science"
and were immediately shown a video
by the incredible Lab Muffin
that explained some of the things that we got wrong
about the complexity of beauty products.
- So we decided to fly, during a global pandemic,
to Australia to visit Lab Muffin
because famously YouTubers can't get or spread COVID.
- [Announcer] Debunked.
- True, I guess we'll just stay home and Zoom with her
because that's actually really easy
and everyone should be doing that.
- And (chuckles) it's cheaper.
Michelle, AKA Lab Muffin, Hi. - Hi.
- Michelle, can you give us a background on who you are?
- I have a PhD in chemistry
and I've got a background in science education.
I've been making videos and blogging about
the science behind beauty products since 2011.
And I do it so hopefully people who don't
have a background in science understand it.
Sort of like what you guys do but for beauty.
- Be honest, when you saw our video, were you annoyed?
- I wasn't annoyed.
I'm sorry if it felt like I was coming for you.
I was actually really excited
because it is so rare that anyone makes
a whole video about skincare from a science perspective.
- So one of the best parts of being YouTubers, I think,
is that you get real-time feedback on what you're doing.
And in the past we have definitely had to fix
biological pathways, drawings we've made mistakes before.
- Yeah, or even the periodic table, we've updated
because there was new information that came in for it.
- And we also once said that it took
eight seconds for sun to get to earth
and it's eight minutes. (bell dings)
Things like that.
But with you, this was like a full video.
So what we thought we could do today
is go through our video and you're going to explain
the parts that we got wrong.
Ding.
- So we're going to sit down with my partner, Mitch,
'cause I didn't really know or use skin creams,
to see if he can actually pick and choose
which ones are more effective and teach you
how to actually read the ingredients lists
of these beauty products,
to understand from a scientific perspective
which ones work.
- So the very idea of this game is flawed (chuckles)
some might say, correct.
- Yeah, there is a bit of a problem with it.
In most countries, products have to have an ingredient list
and it's listed in order of decrease in concentration.
It's tempting to look at how high
an ingredient is on the list
to see if you have more of an ingredient.
More is usually better.
But while you have to have enough
of an ingredient for it to work,
you can also have too much of an ingredient.
And that's when you start to see side effects.
Skincare ingredients are often irritating
if you have too much, so more is not always better.
Another problem with focusing on the ingredients list
is that it only really tells you how much
of an ingredient you have at the start.
Some ingredients like retinol and vitamin C are unstable.
So, for example, 1% retinol products from different brands
can end up containing very different amounts
of retinol by the time it gets to you.
So if you have a product with a high concentration
of an active but it has a pretty crappy delivery system,
that might not work as well as a product
that has a lower concentration but a better delivery system.
So you can think of formulation like a chocolate cake.
Technically the final chocolate cake
and a bag of chocolate cake ingredients
would have the same ingredient list
but, when you use them in your mouth,
it gives you two very different experiences.
- Is it just something that you just navigate
by doing a lot of research before you buy a product?
Because if you are just showing up there,
look at the ingredients list
and reading what's on the bottle,
it's going to be confusing
'cause they're trying to get you to buy it.
- If you were trying to go for a medicine,
you want a medicine that's been proven in clinical trials.
In skincare, because that doesn't actually exist,
you kind of have to try to grab anecdotal evidence
or look at reviews, look at the ingredients list,
look at what's on the label and put it all together
to try to make a good decision.
- As somebody who's never really done that much skincare.
Honestly, I don't really wash my face that often (chuckles).
Is it to my detriment that I'm not
thinking about it that much?
- Honestly, I think if you're happy your skin, don't bother.
(laughs lightly)
You're half brown, you'll probably age beautifully.
(laughing lightly)
- It's me you gotta worry about.
Antioxidants are something that are claimed
on a lot of products that people are buying.
There is not a scientific consensus
that antioxidants will help with anti-aging.
- In your video, you talk about how this was misleading
but personally I had read those studies
that you talk about in your video,
"Stimulation of college biosynthesis
by topically applied vitamin C",
"Double-blind, half-face study comparing
topical vitamin C and vehicle
for rejuvenation of photodamage."
And when I read these studies,
I didn't comfortably think I could say
there was a scientific consensus behind them
because the sample sizes were so small.
It was 10 people in each study.
- The big problem with skincare
is that there just isn't that much funding for it.
So we kind of have to take these studies
and look at it with a grain of salt.
Generally there are small sample sizes in skincare studies
compared to pharmaceuticals, for example.
So for skincare, we kind of have to lower our expectations
and do a bit of educated guesswork.
10 people with a relatively objective measure,
like a biopsy, is generally decent
as far as skincare studies go.
Vitamin C is regulated as a quasi-drug in Japan,
which means there's enough evidence that it does something.
In this case, it's a pigment fading quasi-drug.
- So the reason it's such small sample sizes
is because it's not a top medical priority
to have glowing, beautiful skin.
(laughing lightly)
- A lot of things that claim collagen
will help with wrinkles but the molecule itself
is too large to actually go through your epidermis,
what we were talking about earlier, the keratinocytes.
It does not get through.
So anything with collagen, do not ever buy.
- Collagen is a very overrated ingredient
but I wouldn't say a hundred percent BS.
I'd probably put it back down to maybe 90% BS.
Most of the time it is in there to tell a good story.
Like you said, it's too big to get into skin
but, even though it's too big,
it is really good at acting as a humectant.
So humectants are ingredients that grab onto water
and keep it on your skin.
Keeping it hydrated can do a lot of good.
So it can reduce the appearance of wrinkles,
it can help it act as a good barrier against irritants.
Collagen does tend to make the product
a little bit more expensive.
It's really glycerin that's usually
doing the heavy lifting there.
- Retinol and retinoic acid is what
we're going to talk about right now
because it is the only face cream for anti-aging
that there is a scientific consensus about.
- Especially in Western marketing,
the idea of wrinkles is really, I guess,
etched into our brains.
But in a lot of other countries with different skin types,
aging isn't just about wrinkles.
So, for example, white skin, you start getting wrinkles
late twenties, early thirties.
With Asian skin it's a lot later,
so I think it's something like forties and fifties.
I guess the signs of aging, the anti-aging products
really are targeting things like pigmentation.
That's probably the biggest thing for Asians.
I've definitely got some hidden under there.
Yeah, uneven pigment and age spots are a much bigger thing
because obviously we have a lot more
ability to produce pigment.
- So my mom is like half South Asian, like from India.
Obviously I have like slightly tan skin.
And I've thought about how darker skin
protects you from the sun but I've never really been like,
and that is why darker skin doesn't wrinkle
or age in that way as early.
- Yeah, so I guess it's where the saying
black don't crack comes from.
- So many of the science studies that I'm reading,
they're focusing on wrinkles and they have moments
where they talk about the science of why
different skin tones don't age or,
sorry, there I just said it,
don't get wrinkles the same way white people do
and then they just move on
and go back to talking about wrinkles.
It just shows you how Eurocentric and white science is.
- There was a big thing about manifestations
of COVID in dark skin.
There were a lot of dermatologists pointing out
that a lot of the pictures of COVID manifestations on skin,
it was like 90% white skin and there were
a few pictures of darker skin.
And so it was actually a lot harder to diagnose
and fix those issues.
- Question, should we take our original video down?
- I don't think so.
I think it is really good to have people
see how conversations go.
Because I think there is a lot of pressure
on scientists, especially in 2020, 2021,
that science is just this perfect monolith
that doesn't change and I think that's really damaging.
- Okay, thank you so much for educating us,
for coming on and for your video.
Where can people find you slash subscribe to?
Your channel's (smooches) chef's kiss amazing.
- Oh thank you.
So my channel is Lab Muffin Beauty Science
and I am also on Instagram.
I started on TikTok but I don't know what I'm doing
and on Twitter as well.
So it's Lab Muffin Beauty Science or Lab Muffin,
depending on how many letters I'm allowed.