- So Katherine, thank you so much for joining us
for an "Audible Sessions" interview
about your brand new book, "The Audacity."
- Thank you for having me here.
- It's not exactly chronological,
but you take us through different parts of your life.
How did you first get into performing?
'cause it was something that you were interested in
from a really young age.
- I mean, we were not athletic, the girls and myself,
my sisters and I were not into sports.
And I don't know if that comes from
a traditionalist upbringing or what.
I think my mom wasn't interested.
My mom would say,
"Why would I run unless someone's chasing me?"
And I still don't know why (Holly laughs)
one would run and we don't care where the ball goes.
It's not my business. (Holly laughs)
I would never throw myself in front of a ball over...
Don't understand the millions of pounds
behind that industry.
Equally, enjoy your football.
But I loved music and dance and I didn't love piano,
but my mother said that it would make me
more mathematically inclined if I studied piano,
she was wrong.
And I just did all those things
because my parents thought we should be busy children
and have lots of interests.
And I still think that's true today.
Even if you're not gonna be a performer,
doing something and having commitments
is really good for children.
And performing definitely was a way to meet friends
and to have fun, I just loved it
but it built confidence as well.
So I don't think that I definitely aspired
to be a performer, but I loved performance.
And then it strengthened other areas of my early life,
like academia or like whatever.
It was just a good wholesome use of my time.
- And you started going to kind of auditions
and putting yourself out there for opportunities
and kind of in your late teens and things.
Was there an opportunity or an audition
that you went to that maybe didn't go quite
as you'd imagine?
- Probably the worst one was when I auditioned
to be in a Sean Paul music video.
Sean Paul, he does- - I love Sean Paul.
- Reggae. - All about temperature.
- Yes. (Holly laughs)
- Woo.
See, I'm not really even sure what video it was
because they didn't tell us.
I was already podium dancing
as you do in university.
I would love to say to pay the bills, they didn't pay us.
I just liked to do it for the love of the art.
And it was very difficult to get pornography back then,
so I knew that all the young people in my town
would wank to this show on a Friday night, it was always on,
and it was scantily clad young women
just like gyrating to the popular music
that was going on.
And I knew a lot of my peers were wanking to that.
And it was exactly the kind of project
that I wanted to get involved in.
I was like, "I will dance on that podium."
And I thought I was famous, and I thought,
"Oh, this is the best, and I'm such a good dancer."
I was not, I was just wearing hot pants and I was 19.
That was basically the brief.
But then in that rehearsal space there was a notice
for casting to be in a Sean Paul music video.
And in a disgusting display of white privilege,
I felt like I could be at a Sean Paul music video.
I always went around life being like me,
"I'll try that, why not me?"
Which is good until you find yourself
with your flatmate in a hotel conference room
dancing for eight bewildered men around a table.
And the music was very quiet and I had to actually dance
in a setting like this, just they went,
"All right, get up and dance"
which is a very difficult thing to do.
"Get up now and dance."
But I was 20 years old, 21 years old and I went, "Okay."
And I stood and I danced badly
when all the other dancers in line were like dance hall,
like Jamaican print amazing,
totally qualified for this music video.
I looked like I was an extra from "Toddlers & Tiaras"
just lost.
I wrote my roommate into it.
It was a bad scene and it went...
It was very awkward and they made me dance
for the whole song.
Songs are long.
And I was not cast but I still don't regret going for it.
It made me more brave for other obstacles and challenges
that I would face in my life.
And I get to tell my daughter now
when Sean Paul comes on the radio in the car,
I go, "Well, I was nearly in a Sean Paul music video."
She goes, "You were?"
And I was like, "Yeah."
And I was nearly...
I was more nearly in a Sean Paul music video
than someone who didn't audition.
- Very true. - Yeah.
So I don't mind that failure, it's fine.
- Do you have a go-to dance move?
That one particular move
that you were like use it for that song?
- Yes.
Back then we had a very early version
of dropping it like it was hot-
- Yeah.
- That we didn't say drop it like it's hot, we just...
There was actually one of the kitchen guys at Hooters,
one of the cooks, I worked at Hooters also.
I mean, I had a really warped idea
of what a woman should be.
Basically all those tabloid magazines that was like my Bible
for like, "Oh, I see."
But he was from Guyana.
And he taught us how to do this little wiggly sexy move
and that was my main move.
But I also was influenced by pop music
and Backstreet boys videos.
So I dragged a chair over at one point,
(Holly laughs) did some like chairography.
It was not what the producers wanted to see,
but I still gave it everything I had.
- I bet they had a good time too.
Even if they were a bit baffled-
- Right. - I'm sure they loved it.
- Yeah, I was a comedian before I knew I was a comedian.
(Holly laughs)
If that had been a character, they probably...
I went away and they went, "That was a hidden camera,
"she's got her own crew.
"This was a joke."
I gave them probably a good laugh,
though to their credit, they did not laugh in my face.
They remained very stoic until at least I was down the hall.
I don't know.
- So you've got now to your kind of
"Zero fucks given" mantra,
and you got to that place.
How did you get there?
How did you get to this point
from being that kind of just wanna fit in in school?
- I think you have to give all the fucks
before you realize that you should actually give none.
I think I really cared.
I tried so many different ways to be well-liked
or to be this idea of who I thought a woman should be.
And I was criticized or admonished,
or just got a lot of bewildered looks.
I was very eccentric and an outsider,
and those are not good qualities in a small town,
from my perspective.
Where I was, was an uncomfortable place.
And I never wanted to upset people,
but I could not make them like me.
And I just reached a place where through bad relationships,
toxic relationships, self revelations,
unfortunately it took until my 30s.
A therapist and just life experience taught me
it's not your job to make everyone else understand you
and it's not your job to make everyone like you
because that's just an impossible strategy.
And I think in relationships specifically,
I'd be mistreated and I'd say,
"Well, I'll just explain to him.
"Well, I just need him to understand.
"I just need him to see my perspective
"and he'll know that he was wrong."
And then I just realized, "No, you don't."
What I need to do is just never text him back
and let him say lots of things about me that are false
and listened to those things and not argue and go, "Yup."
And that was a great lesson for me.
So I think started with life
and then it was punctuated by relationships.
And now I feel like in my work,
when people don't like what I do
or criticize what I've said, how I have articulated myself,
I don't even get angry or hurt
because I feel like they are totally entitled
not to like me.
And that is a very calming feeling.
And you can apply it to school or your job
or your relationships.
You're totally entitled not to like me,
I'm not gonna take that personally,
because I told like everyone.
- You write in the book and you've said multiple times,
your onstage persona is not the person
that you are every day, sat in your home or whatever it is.
So what would you say the biggest differences are
between your onstage persona
and Katherine around your friends or family?
- I'm not glam glam glam in real life.
I have one of two speeds.
One is drag and the other is
I kind of dress like an elderly rapper in my real life,
like Flavor Flav without the clock,
I wear velour tracksuits and high-end luxury lounge wear,
leisure wear, but I don't have makeup on or hair extensions
and I'm very quiet.
Anyone who comes into our house is like,
"Why is your house so quiet?" 'cause we have dogs,
we have a baby, and I have my daughter,
and my husband and me.
But first of all, it's not my business.
Whatever people wanna take from my stage persona
that's up to them and I just leave it to them.
But I get feedback when I got married, for example,
that'd be like, "Oh my gosh, poor him.
"She's hard work, she's really high maintenance,
"like crazy bitch."
And I was like, "All right."
And people think that I stomp around
and gowns just eviscerating anyone who gets in my way
and I'm full of punchlines,
but I'm not that way, I'm complete introvert.
I'm an extroverted introvert.
- It's called "The Audacity."
So what do you think is the most audacious thing
that you've ever done?
- I mean, audacity is a sense of self-confidence
or self-assuredness that other people might find rude.
And it's curious to me that,
the most offensive thing that I do as a woman in comedy
is just exist without asking for permission.
That's all that I do.
I don't want anything from anyone.
I don't go disrupt their lives or do anything.
All I'm doing is authentically, proudly existing,
dressing how I want, saying what I want, doing what I want.
And there are people who find that to be deeply offensive,
which is why we all have to do it more.
- And finally, do you have a top tip for being courageous?
- Mmh.
If I could just pick one.
I think that courage comes from fearlessness.
And courage for me isn't something,
it's just a lack of something else.
So I do have an absence of fear.
I'm not afraid of failure and I don't really have any ego,
even though it really seems like I do.
I don't mind if something doesn't go my way
and I don't feel hurt if someone dislikes what I've created,
especially when they are someone who creates nothing.
Always remember that, who cares?
And it's just an absence of self-consciousness and of fear.
And if you don't have those things
and you know you're being kind
and you're not hurting anyone,
then you can just go forth
and try everything in life that's fun.
And then you regret nothing because you've been courageous.
- Well, we agree nothing is obviously all of our goals.
So thank you very much. - Thank you.
- "The Audacity" is a wonderful book,
it's a really lovely read.
Well, thank you so much for coming to talk to me.
- Thank you.
I'm so sorry, you probably have to read
like 100 books a week.
- [Holly] That's a good one.
- [Katherine] Do you like it?
Did you like it?
I really appreciate you reading it,
sorry for all the naughty words.