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>> THAT'S ONE VIEW OF THE CASE,
AND SOME OF THIS MAY ALL SOUND
QUITE DRY, BUT LET'S BE CLEAR
ACCORDING TO THE WALL.
THE CHARGES WOULD NOT BE ANY
KIND OF OUTLIER.BX,GD
FALSE BUSINESS RECORDx/+Ow?lo t÷
AREé/W THE BREAD AND/$xo
NEW YORK D.A.'S OFFICE.
THAT'S HOW "THE TIMES" PUT IT
TOGETHER, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT A VETERAN OF THE D.A.'S
■ THIS "TIMES" WHAT A VETERAN OF THE D.A.'S OFFICE)YKf+O BEFORE
#o=q ARTICLE CAMEi
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U##fw INSURRECTION TO ARGUE
DOWN OTHER BAD THINGS THEY MAY o
WHEN YOU,ét7U$IS D>
BREAD AND BUTTE).SUú÷ íwhe BREAD
■ AT;l íwhe BREAD AN$ér BUTTER YOU MIGHT>=U
■ AT;l
NEW YORK DINER.
NOW, LET'S PUT THE FOOD
ANALOGIES ON THE SIDE, IF YOU
ARE ON THE EAST COAST GETTING
READY FOR DINNER I HOPE I
HAVEN'T MADE YOU TOO HUNGRY.
SINCE BRAGG TOOK OFFICE,
PROSECUTOR THERE IS FILED 117
FELONY COUNTS OF THIS EXACT
CHARGE OVER THE LAST YEAR.
BREAD AND BUTTER.
WE WANT TO GO TO THE SOURCE.
DAN HOROWITZ A FORMER ASSISTANT
D.A. FOCUSING ON WHITE COLLARVÑk
CRIMES.
■ SERVEDc)UT ON THEjE@Ñ TRAN
TEAM FOR MANHATTAN DISTRICT
ATTORNEY ALVIN BRAGG.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOST
EXPERIENCED SKILLED PEOPLE TO
DISCUSS EXACTLY THIS, SO I'M
GLAD YOU'RE HEAR TONIGHT.
>> THAT'S WHAT MY KIDS THINK,
TOO.
>> YOUR KIDS AGREE WITH THE BAR.
I DON'T KNOW HOW INFORMED THEY
ARE AS LEGAL EXPERTS, BUT THAT'S
GREAT.
YOU LOOK AT THIS, DO YOU AGREE
WITH WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID?
>> I DO.
I DO.
AND I WAS IN THAT OFFICE FOR
ALMOST TEN YEARS PROSECUTING
COMPLEX WHITE COLOR CASES, AND
YOU INDICATED THE STATS UNDER D.A. BRAGG.
D.A. BRAGG.
I BROUGHT MANYO
WHEN YOU BRING A CASE LIKE THIS,
WHAT KIND OF EVIDENCE DO YOU PARTICULARLY HAVE?
PARTICULARLY HAVE?
>> WELL, YOU HAVE WITNESSESL1+\f
YOU NEED RECORDS TO SHOW THAT
THE ENTRIES WERE FALSE AND YOU
NEED WITNESSES TO EXPLAIN THAT,
SO YOU NEED SOMEBODY TO TALK
ABOUT HOW DOES THE BUSINESS
OPERATE?
WHAT DO WE PUT IN YOUR BOOKS AND
RECORDS ORDINARILY, AND YOU NEED
EVIDENCE TO SHOW WHY THOSE
ENTRIES FOR FALSE AND YOU ALSO
NEED SOMEBODY OR WITNESSES AND
EVIDENCE TO LINK TO THAT OTHER CRIME.
Bo kgzd■ CRIME. >> LET57H0ç?W■á7gU BY
Bo kgzd■
Yoe
Bé'S SAY THAT YOU PUT 100,000 PLUS TOWARDS YOUR
áTjU5kMóz 100,000 PLUS TOWARDS YOUR LAWYER, AND YOUR LAWYERñBLXh"a&p
áTjU5kMóz
SOMETHING, AND ALL6
YOU HAVE TO LINK THE EVIDENCE OF
THE FALSE RECORD AND INTENT TO
COMMIT THE OTHER CRIME.
>> I'M ASKING YOU, HOW STRONG IS
THAT DEFENSE?
>> UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN IN THE CASE,
Y÷i>■égkv<DEPjÑ(0jK■oR WHAT I'VE SEEN IN THE CASE, READING THEe
Y÷i>■égkv<DEPjÑ(0jK■oR
MICHAEL COHEN PLEA, OUT OF AN
INSIDER TO A FRONT ROW SEAT SO
EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED, AND UNDER
NEW YORK STATE LAW YOU HAVE TO
HAVE CORROBORATING EVIDENCE.
>> IS THATaó >> THAT IS A COMMON DEFENSE,
EXECUTIVES. >> THAT IS A COMMON DEFENSE, HAVING U5U]U]=
EXECUTIVES.
>> IS IT STRONG OR WEAK Omh
MEDIUM?
>> IT IS STRONG?
DEPENDS ON THE WITNESSES AND THE
EVIDENCE.
>> HOW ABOUT IN THIS CASE?
>> I WOULD SAY IN THIS CASE, I
THINK THAT UNDER THE
CIRCUMSTANCES FROM WHAT WE KNOW
HYPOTHETICALLY ABOUT THE PERSON
stF■--çM#,
INVOLVED IN THE OPERATIONS OF
THEIR ORGANIZATION.
A SMALL ORGANIZATION WITH A
LIMITED NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
>> SO IT'S WEAK TO SAY I HAD NO
IDEA.
>> I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS NOT A
PARTICULARLY COMPELLING --
>> OKAY, THAT IS DEFENSE NUMBER
ONE.
IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, SOMEONE IN A
LARGE KPAN WHERE THERE'S THINGS
GOING ON MIGHT BE ABLE TO REMOVE
HIMSELF.
IT'S NOT, OH, THERE'S A LIGHTING
BILL.
IT'S THEIR OWN LIFE, AND THEY
WERE INVOLVED AND PAID IT BACK.
LET ME BRING TO YOU NUMBER TWO.
THAT'S ONE DEFENSE.
ANOTHER DEFENSE IS -- AND I
MENTIONED, WE TRIED TO HEAR FROM
EVERYBODY. DONALD TRUMP'S NEW YORK LAWYER,
ç u MISLEADING, IT'S NOTAcú; REALL DONALD TRUMP'S NEW YORK LAWYER, MR. TACOPINAusSy j
u MISLEADING, IT'S NOTAcú; REALL
A GOOD ENOUGH BUSINESS RECORD
FOR YOU TO USE BACK WHEN YOU
WERE DOING THESE KINDS OF CASES.
YOU'RE SLRDALREADY SMILING.
>> I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT
MEANS.
>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT'S NOT A
GOOD BUSINESS RECORD?
>> I'LL SHOW YOU.x1GU
HE SAYS IF IT'S PERSONAL AND
PRIVATE AND NOT REALLY BUSINESS
IT'S LIKE WRITING SOMETHING
DOWN.
LIKE YOU BOUGHT A HORSE.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> OKAY.
>> EVEN IF YOU PUT YOUR
CHECKBOOK.
I'LL USE ME.
I BOUGHT A CAR AND I WROTE,
PURCHASED A HORSE -- THAT'S
INACCURATE.
THAT'S A LIE MAYBE.
BUT THERE'S NO CRIME THERE.
BECAUSE THIS FILING WAS NOT FOR
THE PURPOSE OF INFLUENCING AN
ELECTION.
TO ME, IFZ$2)■ THEY'RE PURSUING
MATTER, IT'S WEAPONIZING THE
JUSTICE SYSTEM TO KEEP THIS GUY
OUT OF OFFICE.
>> HE SAYS IT'S LIKE A CHECKBOOK
PRIVATE NOTE, NOT A BUSINESS
RECORD YOU COULD CHARGE.
>> I COULDN'T DISAGREE MORE
STRONGLY WITH JOE TACOPINA ON
THIS.
IT'S A BUSINESS CHECK.
YOU'RE WRITING A CHECK FOR A
COMPANY.
THAT IS A BUSINESS RECORD, AND
THERE IS HUNDRED OF YEARS OF LAW THAT SAY THAT.
■J÷IçÑ/ THAT SAY THAT. IN NEW YORK,j
OTH SYSTEM, YOU LOOK AT
OTH
THAT HAVE SIMILAR STATUTES.
THIS ISN'T A QUESTION.
>> SOUNDS LIKE YOU THINK -- I
DON'T WANT PUT WORDS IN YOUR
MOUTH.
SOUNDS LIKE YOU THINK THAT
OR BENEATH DISCUSSION.
>> I THINK IT'S LAUGHABLE.
>> LAUGHABLE, BECAUSE IF PAYING
FOR SOMETHING IN YOUR BUSINESS
ISN'T A BUSINESS RECORD THEN
WHAT IS A BUSINESS RECORD?
>> I THINK THE FIRST DEFENSE, AS
I SAID A MINUTE AGO, IT IS A
COMMON DEFENSE FOR DEFENSE
LAWYERS REPRESENTING EXECUTIVES,
AND YOU SAID IT YOURSELF, IN A
LARGE COMPANY, THERE'S A LOT
THAT GOES ON.
PEOPLE GET CC'd ON EMAIL CHAINS.
THAT'S NOT THE ORGANIZATION
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS
WHY I THINK THAT PARTICULAR
DEFENSE IS NOT SO COMPELLING
UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
>> YOU KNOW WHAT SEAN CARTER,
JAY-Z SAID.
>> WHAT'S THAT.
>> DO YOU KNOW?
>> I DO NOT. >> I'M NOT A BUSINESSMAN.
8v >> I'M NOT A BUSINESSMAN. I'M A BUSINESS, MAN, NOW LET MEL