spring wife's
you know I don't spend too much time talking about a about snowed in
I upper say cuz I feel like there's to a certain extent we've
do we know as much in many respects as we're going to know about him
perhaps I don't know but what are the things that his that has
I have wondered about in terms as are the meta of this story is
are from the very beginning is where you at mean
how in and by this point there's obviously been a lot more assertive
understanding and whoever snowed in is over it in
in win was up to the moment the leaks but will
what was it like for you i mean how were you able
or were you able to have a notion love who this guy was and whether or not the
documents you were getting
were legit I would imagine you also were concerned about revealing who he was
before he had done that himself
right so
personal I no I think there's this perception that
I and somehow arguing at is
questions or discussions about start and our topic
the on relevant I don't actually think that at all
a criticism i've made up the media isn't that they than reporting them snowed in
I wanted to know about starting it was that that's come at the expense of
love this subsidy live revelations that they're so obsessed with the
personality parts of it that they've essentially written
out their narrative what has actually been revealed about the NSA and they're
so focused
done declaring him a criminal and all the bad things that he's done in their
eyes
while ignoring much more serious criminality by people have a lot more
power
namely those were running the NSA and you are at the highest levels of the
Obama
mistakes and that's when my critique I actually think it is important to
understand snowed in
armies a historical figure at this point he's probably the most significant
whistleblower blah century and
daniel ellsberg who is probably the compact other for that title
himself says that that's the case I I think it's really fascinating understand
why somebody at the 229 with throwaway
what most people would view is a really me know not
that is satisfactory but I ball
goal lucky and blessed life in order to pursue abstract political balls that
really don't benefit
that person anyway a I think Anna I hope that is Akron's one spire
other people to be sufficiently brave to come forward remember
ron widan and and mark Udall two US senators have been running around the
country for
two years warning the American public that the Obama administration had the
secret interpretations of law that were really radical and warped
on hand at the at use these interpretations are %ah divest
themselves of the radical power than their words would stun the American
people
if they learned about it and yet senators Wyden and Udall
even other to the better senators I on this top
I'm lacked the courage that Edward stone has legs is they lacked the courage to
come forward and tell Americans what it was that they were talking about what
was so alarming
so it took Edwards snowed in a 29 year old kid who doesn't have the protections
that those senators have to come in Dallas and
figuring out an understanding why in and and thinking about why that's a relic &
Noble we love our gratitude I think a really important
Bob you know so when I to answer your question specifically when I
went to Hong Kong I already spent all bottle hours talking to have
%uh before I got there mostly online
on in fact exclusively online and
you know obviously my a first ball
by began talking and having it certainly was I got to Hong Kong where I spent
you know I don't have many hours but I was there 12 days I was you know it
speaking to him either in person or online
probably ten hours a day at least during but I I was in hong kong probably more
I'm sliced all of the time with that and won my first goals was to understand
I'll wifey sows to do what he did
both because I had or real curiosity to understand why somebody would do that
up but also I need to you are sure myself
that if somebody was going to take it II step which would
unravel their lives and bring on them very serious consequences
I needed to know that they had a really thought it through that they were
overnight and rational about Ed
a and I spent a long time questioning about that in lots a different way
days and but I continuously heard was the same thing which was very persuasive
to me which was
I'm somebody who judges the worth of my life based not on my beliefs but based
on the actions like
in pursuit of those beliefs I
world where the promise that the Internet was that critics
or things like that LA you get into anonymity and privacy
and I don't wanna live in a world where that's destroyed where the Internet this
who love oppression rather than it will love liberation
a and that I just in good conscience
the part our best secret affair yes destructive system that is being built
by the United States against
all citizens breast in the world I and set by quietly
and I have people ignorant to bed I just would be able to live with myself and
so it he became it became very clear to me and it was very persuasive why he did
what he did
that he was genuine and authentic about the things that he was saying
I that these documents you know for a long time there are thousands of them it
would have been impossible for someone to dis
fraudulently manufacture them I'll my size I D I saw
is government documents a you know I I saw a lot of things that maybe
prolly even the authenticity of who he was what he was saying
the obviously you know you can never get proof with mathematical certainty
a and I knew that had this been fake
by credibility the credibility the Guardian would be forever crippled
so you do what you can to assure yourself that it's all real but
ultimately
you have to rely on your own judgment intuition about who is genuine and
authentic and you
was it and by the end of the second day in hong kong I
0 dow literally zeroed out that he was exactly who he said he was that he had
done what he did for exactly the reasons that he claimed about the doctor
it's a completely real at all that turned out to be true I am
movie I mean I how how did you
the I mean were how did you i mean I guess you know two shirts and you've got
all these thousands a document me this question
answers itself but on some level I you know
the the howdy how did you know that it wasn't necessarily mean I guess maybe
have answered this but
one thing that struck me was you have the ability to call booze down it is
believed you
you know the day before I a year you're looking at these documents
I can I ask you about an employee who who has to come in for a couple days
I E mean dewey do you
had did you have any time any city concern that maybe
you were seeing something that was interagency here's a guy by
his own accounting at work for the CIA and then certified moved over to the NSA
I'll was there ever a time where you contemplated maybe this is something
that's also internally happening
sure I mean if there is a %uh 2008 document that was written by the US Army
and it was
designated top-secret there was about WikiLeaks and it declared with your ex
to be the enemy of the state and talked about ways that
the US Army could destroy a WikiLeaks a cripple their ability to function and
one of the things I talked about was that
fr going documents were leaked to WikiLeaks which then published at that
would forever destroy their credibility in
nobody would ever believe anything bad to say ever again
and so the the possibility that this is all a track or a pot Arts & Batman or
just somebody playing some kind of way
elaborate Joe war something more
kinda 0 DS of course those possibilities are things that you think about you the
request not to
the but you know you do everything you can to eliminate that possibility by
batting what it is that you're seeing by
you know I spent probably two dozen hours in the first couple days just
will let mostly interrogating him just search warrant
consistency is our uncertainties or things that just didn't quite a
feel workshop or ring cracked me now but back prior life I was a lawyer I to
depositions where
I would do that for days at a time with the witnesses and and feel like I know
how to
kick the tires really hard on somebody's story but especially in this world of
intelligence and surveillance
and the CIA a all kinds of things are done that aren't what they seem they
specialize in line to be brought deceiving people in checking people
they're very good at that and so course you have to be very guarded and careful
about what it is that you're
choose to believe because it is your reputation in
and your career ultimately online your ability to achieve things in a
meaningful way
a but given all that all the questioning I did have him
I you know but working on surveillance a long time in the NSA for a long time so
the documents Ranger to me
I was able to link them to other things that I know about
a I work with some people who are experts he said these things and was
able to talk to them
but ultimately I relied mostly on my intuition the intuition a war pictures
with him I was working
well and got your position where I felt very comfortable
a publishing this on the basis that it was true me and lastly in terms of this
node in a min II
you know the
you said that will when you first met me said he doesn't fear any jail time
I in which is you know in
certainly something that I know that I would have significantly feared
I am but he is it sounds now as if he is basically a
accepted the I least the some type of
cause I permanent status in Russia
as far as what I can see in news reports today
I G do you think that did did his
perspective change on that or was that he was aware
love the possibility he would go to jail that was not enough
for him to do this but he has the sort have
I guess the a typical human desire to not be in jail
yes for most
why would say for all same people by definition the prospect of being put
into a tiny cage in a
having your life completely constrained and controlled until you die is a
generally unpleasant idea that you would like to avoid if you can
so when I say that he weighs
not fearful Jr while that isn't the same thing as saying he desired present right
he would like to you remain how to present he
realize though when he did when he did that there was a very good chance that
he would be able to you would not be able to have to
a desire for felt he would actually end up in American custody it's still a
possibility that he well
%uh and and he made his choice
knowing that that was a possibility one of the things that is important to him
as
be able to continue to participate in the debate that he helped to propel
if he thought that he could get a fair trial in the United States
he would not about the United States he would go back to the united states now
but he seems
happened about the Manning who was takin and put into a cage not allowed out of
prison while the charges are pending for two-and-a-half
years was kept completely incommunicado so that we never heard back
adding that his voice and tell the organization to help sell the free to
the press
I foundation published against the
orders the cord an audio recording a bad thing
in his court-martial proceeding to nap years later explaining why he did what
he did
so how did we not done that barings voice still would not be here
even though there was all kinds of things that have been said about so he
doesn't trust
the US this year if very good reasons they proven themselves as corrupt them
some serbian institution whenever
national security came very by the US government whistleblowers a particular
are persecuted
people who are put into prison arent allowed to participate in
the debates and even daniel ellsberg in his Washington Post op-ed
said that he thinks that it was absolutely right to play %uh
even though ellsberg did because it's a much different country now
Wellsburg was out on their hearts albert was not out right %uh
yeah he was allowed out on bail he he gay press conferences all the time he he
participate in the debate over what he had done
there's zero chance that's start it would be able to do that if he came back
to the US tomorrow
he would be snack stop put into a cage and we probably never hear from me again
literally on and so those are not conditions that he's willing to accept
he doesn't trust the legitimate see invalidity of the US
judicial system works political culture and I don't blame her at all I would
need their fire ahead and so
he wants to stay at a prison he was to participate in the debate where
that he upstart and there aren't many countries in the world
there at the ball ability and willingness
I had to get to you avoid US dictates not capitulate to US dictates into UN
forces legally recognized right
to seek asylum in Russia happens to be one of those countries and and that's
why he's there
greenwald thanks so much for taking the time I know the very busy these days
and the good luck with the rest the the reporting on this story it sounds like
there's gonna be a lot more revelations to come
and I appreciate the you both your appearing and of course the the work you
do it thanks very much sam really appreciate it was good talking
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