amna: It has been a historic
week in politics, with former
president trump appearing in
court and two members of the
Tennessee state legislature
being expelled from office.
For more on that we turn now to
the analysis of Capehart and
Abernathy -- that's Jonathan
Capehart, associate editor for
the Washington post, and his
fellow post colleague Gary
Abernathy.
It is good to see you both.
Quite a week.
We saw former president Donald
Trump enter a not guilty plea,
go to Florida and deliver a
fiery speech.
He is running for president,
raising money off of this --
millions so far -- and he has
widened the gap from his next
contender.
Are the criminal charges going
to propel him to the nomination?
>> Yes.
And I say that with confidence.
And I say that because I have
seen this movie before.
In 2016, when everyone said
there is no way that this guy
can win, I started watching his
poll numbers, particularly when
he attacked the late senator
John McCain.
The horrific things he said
about him, then his numbers went
up.
Within the Republican primary
base, a party that loved of the
military, and loves, you know,
strength.
Yet they went with a guy that
attacked a war hero and a former
prisoner of war.
Now that he has got -- he's been
indicted by one jurisdiction,
and there might be others, they
are circling the wagons around
him, because for the Republican
primary base he is their guy, he
is their avatar for their
grievances and upset with the
government.
I do not see how anyone can take
the nomination away from him.
Amna: Only Hutchison, the former
Arkansas governor, has declared
he will run and has said that
trump has been indicted, he
should step aside.
Why does he think that?
>> Some of it is because there
are questions about this
indictment.
I thought that Marcus had a good
column this weekend talking
about, she is obviously not a
trump fan, but what a high wire
act the indictment is.
It is very flimsy.
Circling the wagons around trump
is because this seems a rather
politicized indictment.
I mean, if I am Joe Biden, I am
thinking -- I beat Donald Trump
two years ago.
I'm the president.
What is everybody talking about?
We are talking about Donald
Trump.
Now with the New York indictment
and with possible indictments
coming out of Georgia come with
the January 6 investigation
ongoing, he's guaranteed to be
top of mind conversation for the
next couple years, not just
because he is running for
president but because of the
indictments.
While each one of these involves
shameful acts by Donald Trump,
no doubt about it, I do not
think any of them will result in
criminal, um, guilty findings in
any case.
Yet that is what we will be
talking about.
Amna: I want to pull this out of
it, what do you mean when you
say this is politicized?
Gary: Everybody seems to agree
that there is not much there.
You are taking for the first
time what are misdemeanor
charges and trying to bootstrap
them into felonies by somebody
who campaigned on, hey I am the
toughest on trump, I am going to
get trump.
That is what seems political
about it.
Amna: I want to play for you
these -- we had a chance earlier
today to listen into a focus
group of Republican voters led
by the strategist Sarah
Longwell.
Here's a snippet from Bobby from
Texas and Katie from Michigan.
>> There are bigger charges out
there that somebody could be
arrested for.
You konw, if one -- know, if one
of us did it I could understand.
But somebody at that level of
authority like Donald Trump was,
I do not feel like it is
necessary for that kind of
situation.
>> It is a politician and
politicians do bad things.
Everybody has skeletons in their
closet.
There are so many other people,
Hillary, Obama, Biden and hunter
and all these other things, it's
like there is such a fuel to
hate Donald Trump so much.
Amna: What does this say to you
how this investigation, you
mentioned other investigations,
how any of this will resonate
with voters?
Jonathan: Sorry, I am bracing
myself after listening to that,
because --especially the young
man who said when you are at
that level, they should not
happen.
But this is about
accountability.
I disagree with you, Gary, the
charges brought by the grand
jury are flimsy and this is a
politicized case.
What you are arguing is this is
not worth doing.
But I argue and others argue,
that just because you are a
former president does not give
you a pass on following the law.
And, fine, you do not like Alvin
Bragg's case against Donald
Trump then I cannot wait to hear
what you have to say when the --
in Georgia present in
indictment.
Or what you say about jack Smith
and the potential indictments
there on the classified
documents case, but also the
January 6 insurrection.
At some point this man must be
held accountable for things we
saw him do with our own eyes.
Amna: The idea that at that
level it should not happen.
It seems like he is saying some
people should be above the law.
Gary: They shouldn't be, but
prosecutors decide is this a
case I can win.
And legal experts across the
board seem to agree that this is
a tough one to win.
And do you bring a case like
that against a president?
You have to be honest about the
political environment, the
reaction it will bring, and it
say if I have a winnable case I
need to bring it.
But if I have a case where
people are saying there is not
much here, you have to question
it.
Amna: We have to move on.
I want to ask about what we
reported on in Tennessee because
it was an unprecedented move.
Republicans voting to expel two
democratic lawmakers, Justin
Jones and Justin Pearson.
They voted on a third, a white
woman, but they did not expel
her.
They were expelled because they
took part in a protest on gun
reform.
What message does that send?
Jonathan: I will use tart
language right now.
I think the message of the
legislature sent to the state,
to constituents and young people
who were demonstrating for their
own lives, they basically said
to them we do not give a damn
about you.
Those young people came out to
their state capital, asking for
help.
Days after a school was -- added
to the list of schools at that
have had to suffer mass
shootings.
Representative Gloria Johnson
was in a school shooting.
She knows why those young people
were there.
So for the Tennessee
legislature, for the house of
representatives to strip Jones
and Pearson of their seats, they
are basically saying to their
constituents -- we do not care
about you either.
Those people in their districts
have no representative in the
state legislature.
So, I am sorry -- what should
those folks think?
They should think the people who
are in the state capital, who
are supposed to be their
fighting for all of them, they
do not care.
They do not give a damn about
them.
Gary: I am sure I would've voted
to expel them but I am not sure
it is outrageous to do it.
Nobody is complaining about the
regular people protesting.
When the legislators protest
with them, there is a decorum in
any state legislature or in
congress.
I do not like when people shout
out during the state of the
union address and break the coal
room.
When folks participate against
their own body and fellow
members, you know, the regular
citizens protesting, I think
that crosses a line that you say
as a leader, you know, you
crossed a line against your
fellow legislators.
Jonathan: Expulsion?
What about a slap on the wrist,
dock their pay, their debit card
at the concession stand.
But to remove them from office,
that is so extreme.
And we are in a time now where
some other Republicans in other
state legislatures will copy
what was done in Tennessee.
Gary: You do have a line where
you say we expect this from
fellow members.
Again, I do not think I would
have expelled them.
I'm not entirely disagreeing
with you on this one but I do
not think it is completely
outrageous.
I think it is obviously within
their rules.
Jonathan: But we saw this before
at the federal level, when John
Lewis, after a mass shooting,
went to the well of the house of
representatives flanked by
Democrats, and led a sit-in on
the house for. -- Floor.
They could have been arrested,
but they were not because there
was judgment.
There was real leadership in the
speaker at the time.
Amna: We will leave it there,
but I guarantee you we will be
talking about this again.
Thank you both for joining the
conversation.
Thank you.
♪♪