>>> KAREN BROWN'S VOICE IS FAMILIAR TO MANY IN THE REGION,
AND SHE REPORTS ON SCIENCE AND MENTAL HEALTH FOR NEW ENGLAND
PUBLIC RADIO.
BUT FOR HER NEWEST ENDEAVOR YOU WON'T HEAR HER, AS SHE'S THE
CO-PRODUCER OF A PODCAST CALLED THE "GREAT GOD OF DEPRESSION."
IT'S THE STORY OF AN UNLIKELY COLLABORATION BETWEEN TWO GREAT
MINDS, WHICH WE DISCUSSED IN THE STUDIO RECENTLY.
MERCHANDISE MY COPRODUCER HAS BEEN THINKING ABOUT THESE KIND
OF ISSUES FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, AS HAVE BOTH OF US, WE BOTH
COVER LATE OFMENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, BUT WE REALLY WERE
LOOKING FOR A WAY TO TELL IT IN A VERY NARRATIVE WAY AS A STORY
ABOUT REAL PEOPLE AND NOT SIMPLY SORT OF THE OVERALL CONVISIT
MENTAL ILLNESS AND DEPRESSION.
SO SHE IS GOOD FRIENDS WITH ONE OF THE CHARACTERS IN OUR POD
CAST, ALICE FLAHERTY, WHO CALLS HERSELF THE ONLY OPENLY CRAZY
DOCTOR AT MASS GENERAL.
AND THIS DOCTOR HAD BEEN THE DOCTOR OF THE WILLIAM STYRON, A
VERY FAMOUS AUTHOR, WHO CHANGED THE CONVERSATION ABOUT MENTAL
ILLNESS ABOUT 20-SOME YEARS AGO.
>> I'VE HEARD HIS NAME A LOT AROUND THE ISSUE OF DEPRESSION.
>> ESPECIALLY IN THE 1990.
IT SEEMED LIKE THE PERFECT STORY TO TELL A BIGGER STORY.
>> YOU HAVE THESE TWO REALLY FASCINATING PEOPLE, SO FULL
DISCLOSURE, I'M IN EPISODE 3.
I WON'T GIVE AWAY SPOILERS HERE, WE'LL TALK BROADLY.
I KEPT THINKING THROUGH THE FIRST THREE EPISODES, YOU HAVE
THESE BRILLIANT PEOPLE WHO ARE ALSO SUFFERING FROM MENTAL
ILLNESS, AND IT'S SO INTERESTING TO ME HOW INDISCRIMINAT THIS
DISEASES THIS.
DID THAT COME UP FOR YOU AT ALL DOING THIS?
>> ESPECIALLY WITH SOMEONE LIKE WILLIAM STYRON, WHO WROTEARE
"SOPHIE'S CHOICE," HE WAS FRIENDS WITH ALL THE MOST FAMOUS
PEOPLE ON MARTHA'S VINEYARD, AND HE WAS MISERABLE, HE WAS IN
DESPAIR, EVEN FROM THE OUTSIDE IT LOOKED LIKE HE HAD AN AMAZING
LIFE.
>> WIFE, FAMILY, KIDS, HE SEEME- >> FAME AND SUCCESS, THAT'S
SOMETHING HE TALKED ABOUT IN HIS BOOK, DARKNESS VISIBLE, WHICH IS
A STORY AS WE TELL IT, SORT OF BEGINS IN THE 1990 AFTER HE
BECOMES FAMOUS FOR WRITING THIS DEPRESSION MEMOIR.
>> HE WAS QUESTIONED BY A MEMBER OF AN AUDIENCE WHEN HE WAS
TALKING ABOUT THAT.
LET'S GIVE A LISTEN TO A PIECE OF EPISODE 3.
>> DO YOU WATER ABOUT BECOMING DEPRESSED AGAIN?
>> I DO WORRY, BUT IT'S NOT A WORRY THAT HAUNTS ME VERY MUCH.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK DIDESTROYS PEOPLE WHEN THEY
SUFFER CLINICAL DEPRESSION IS THE FACT IT'S THE FIRST TIME
THEY'VE EVER HAPPENED TO THEM, IT'S SO GHASTLY THAT THEY'RE
TAKEN UNAWARES, IF IT WERE TO HAPPEN TO ME AGAIN AT LEAST I
WOULD KNOW WHAT I WAS FACING.
THAT WOULD BE AN ADVANTAGE.
>> WAS HE RIGHT?
>> WELL, THIS FEAR OF RELAPSE IS A REALLY STRONG CONCERN FOR A
LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEPRESSION.
AND SADLY, HE WASN'T REALLY RIGHT ABOUT HAVING A FIRST
DEPRESSION BEING SORT OF IN INNOCULATING HIM AGAINST A
SECOND DEPRESSION, THAT'S A LOT OF WHAT WE TALK ABOUT IN OUR POD
CAST.
HE BECAME THIS ICON OF RECOVERY FROM DEPRESSION, HE GAVE PEOPLE
SO MUCH HOPE.
>> HE TOOK IT OUT OF THE SHADOWS, HE OUTED HIMSELF AS
DEPRESSED.
>> HE MADE IT OKAY TO AT LEAST TALK ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS.
>> BACK WHEN YOU DID NOT TALK ABOUT THIS PUBLICLY.
>> HE ADMITTED HOW HARSH I BELIEVE IT WAS.
HE ALSO RECOVERED FROM IT.
YOU FOR 15 YEARS HE WAS GREAT AND HE WAS TALKING ABOUT IT.
BUT THEN IT CAME BACK AGAIN, AND THE GUILT AND THE SHAME THAT HE
FELT FOR BEING THIS SORT OF ICON OF RECOVERY WHO THEN GETS A
RELAPSE WAS VERY HEART-BREAKING, AND THAT'S WHERE A LOT OF OUR
STORY INTERSECTS WITH HIS PAST, WHICH IS WHEN ALICE FLAHERTY,
THE DOCTOR WHO HE MEETS AT MASS GENERAL AND COUNTERS HIM, HE'S
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SECOND DEPRESSION, THEY HAVE TO BE
REALLY CREATIVE.
IT'S NOT REALLY FAIR THAT -- TO HIMSELF THAT HE FEELS LIKE HE'S
LET DOWN HIS READERS, HE REALLY DIDN'T.
THAT'S A FUNCTION OF THE DISEASES IN SOME REGARD.
>> ALICE FLAHERTY, SHE'S SUFFERING FROM HER OWN FORM OF
ILLNESS, SOMETHING CALLED HYPER GRAPHIA, YOU'VE WRITTEN AND
REPORTED A LOT ABOUT MENTAL ILLNESS, IS THIS SOMETHING YOU
HEARD ABOUT BEFORE THIS SERIES.
>> I HAD HEARD ABOUT ALICE'S STORY FOR A FEW YEARS.
BEFORE THAT, THIS COMFOULINGS WRITE AND NOT STOP WRITING, I
HADN'T HEARD ABOUT THAT.
IT'S ON THE CONTINUUM OF BIPOLAR DISORDER, IT'S A TYPE OF MANIC
DEPRESSION, IT CAN TAKE OVER YOUR LIFE FOR SOME PEOPLE, IT
CAN BE HORRIBLE.
>> SOMETIME 15, 20 HOURS A DAY, SHE'S WRITING ON ANYTHING AND
EVERYTHING, SHE'S WRITING ON SCRAPS OF PAPER, HERSELF,
ANYWHERE SHE CAN THINK OF.
DO YOU THINK THAT HAD SHE NOT SUFFERED FROM THAT, THAT SHE AND
STYRON WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO WORK TOGETHER THE WAY THEY HAD.
>> CERTAINLY SHE HAD A LOT OF EMPATHY FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO
CONTROL EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS TO YOUR MIND, SHE HAD AN IMMENSE
AMOUNT OF CURIOSITY ABOUT HER OWN MADNESSES, AS SHE WOULD CALL
IT.
SO DID WILLIAM STYRON.
THE TWO OF THEM WERE FASCINATED ABOUT HOW THE BRAIN WORKS AND
OUT TO GET OUT OF MADNESSES.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS THINKING ABOUT, SHE WAS WORKING
AS A NEUROLOGIST THROUGHOUT SUFFERING WITH THIS HYPER
GRAPHIA, AND THIS IDEA THAT SHE WOULD BE OUTED AS THE CRAZY
DOCTOR, AS YOU SAY.
HOW DID SHE SORT OF GRAPPLE WITH WANTING TO MAINTAIN HER
PROFESSIONAL CREDENTIALS WHILE ALSO STRUGGLING WITH THIS
PROBLEM?
>> WELL, SHE'S JUST A SUPERINTERESTING PERSON,
SHEENEDDED UP WRITING A BOOK ABOUT HER HYPERGRAPHIA.
SHE HAD GRAPPLED WITH ALL OF THAT WITH HER PUBLISHER WHEN SHE
WAS TRYING TO DECIDE IF I SHOULD ADMITTO THIS CRAZINESS, PART OF
HER WAY OF BEING A GREAT DOCTOR IS ALLOWING HER PERSONAL
EXPERIENCE TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE.
SHE JUST WENT ON FAITH THAT PEOPLE WOULD TRUST IF SHE WAS
HIRED THERE AS A DOCTOR, SHE KNEW HER JOB, BUT ALSO ADMITTING
THAT HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE ALSO HAVE MENTAL ILLNESS, AND
THEY CAN RECOVER FROM IT, WHICH SHE EVENTUALLY DID.
>> FOR YOU COVERING THIS, WHAT DID YOU LEARN OR UNCOVER ABOUT
THE CONNECTION BETWEEN STRUGGLING WITH A MENTAL ILLNESS
AND CREATIVITY, WHICH IS THE LARGER QUESTION YOU WERE LOOKING
AT?
>> I WISH I COULD SAY THAT I GOT THE ANSWER TO THAT ONE.
YOU KNOW, MENTAL ILLNESS CAN BE SUCH A DEVASTATING ILLNESS, THAT
I WOULD NEVER SAY THERE'S A SILVER LINING, NECESSARILY, BUT
THERE IS THIS SENSE THAT OFTEN CREATIVITY AND INTENSE FEELINGS
AND SENSATIONS IN YOUR MIND CAN GO HAND IN HAND, IT'S ALWAYS A
REAL BALANCE ON HOW DO YOU LEAD A BALANCED HAPPY LIFE, BUT ALSO
MAKE USE OF SORT OF THIS TENSION THAT MAYBE IS IN YOUR MIND THAT
THEN LEADS TO A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF CREATIVITY, TRYING TO RESOLVE
THAT TENSION.
>> WHAT ABOUT THE NATURE OF -- IT'S VERY COMMON WITH MENTAL
ILLNESS, SHAME AND HOW MUCH PEOPLE KEEP IN VERSUS HOW MUCH
THEY SHARE WITH THE PUBLIC, RIGHT.
I MEAN, IT'S SUCH A PERSONAL THING.
I TEND TO BE AN OVERSHARER, AND I SEE A THERAPIST AND TELL
EVERYBODY ABOUT THAT.
SOME PEOPLE FEEL THAT YOU SHOULD JUST KEEP IT IN THE FAMILY, KEEP
IT UNDER WRAPS, I FEEL THE MORE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO TALK ABOUT
WHAT'S GOING ON AND THE MORE THEY'RE WILLING TO TALK ABOUT
MENTAL ILLNESS AS A DES EASE AND NOT A CHARACTER FLAW, THAT'S
GOING TO HELP SO MANY PEOPLE, IT'S A PERSONAL DECISION,
THOUGH, OF COURSE, WHETHER YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN
PROBLEMS OR NOT.
>> WE HOPE THAT PEOPLE WILL TAKE AWAY FROM THE POD CAST?
>> I MOSTLY HOPE THEY WILL SEE IT AS A REALLY COMPELLING STORY
ABOUT TWO FASCINATING, BRILLIANT PEOPLE.
BUT OF COURSE, I ALSO HOPE THEY LEARN A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT
HOW THE MIND WORKS, HOW CREATIVITY WORKS AND A LITTLE
BIT OF THE HISTORY OF MADNESSES IN AMERICA.
>> YOU CAN CATCH THE "GREAT GOD OF DEPRESSION" PODCAST ON
RADIOTOPIA.
THAT'S RADIOTOPIA.FM/PODCASTS/SHOWCASE