>> Live from San Francisco.
It's theCUBE.
Covering DevNet Create 2017.
Brought to you by Cisco.
>> Welcome back everyone.
We're here live in San Francisco
for theCUBE's exclusive two days of coverage
for Cisco Systems' inaugural event
called DevNet Create extension.
DevNet their classic developer program,
for the Cisco install base of network routers.
Now going to the cloud, native, going to the developer
where dev-ops and the enterprise are connecting.
I'm John Furrier, my cohost Peter Burris.
Next is Dan Kohn, who is the Executive Director
of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF.
Formerly known as Kubecon.
Which is the event, Kubecon.io.
Dan, great to see you.
Executive Director, how's business, is going good?
>> Fantastic! (John laughs)
Yeah, six months ago we chatted
at our last event in Seattle.
And it's just amazing to see the progress since then.
Projects members.
>> It's been a whirlwind.
Even I can't keep track.
You guys are announcing all these new projects.
What's the current count of projects that you guys
have under the Cloud Native Compute Foundation?
>> So we're up to 10.
I should definitely start with the fact that Kubernetes
is the anchor 10 in our original project.
In a lot of ways, foundation was setup around that.
And that project is just continuing to do incredibly well.
Where it's one of the highest velocity projects
in the history of open source.
In terms of number of authors,
number of commits, poll requests, issues.
But now we have a constellation of other projects
that are in support of that one.
It can be used in a lot of different ways.
>> John: Yeah. >> That we've been adding in.
>> We had Craig McLuckie on earlier.
Now he's with Heptio.
Again, when he was doing that work,
at Google, back in the days
with what's his name from Microsoft now.
>> Peter: Brendan Burns. >> Brendan Burns, yeah.
>> Now it's an interesting question,
where you say, oh, wait a minute,
the three sort of key people behind Kubernetes,
Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda,
who's his co-founder at Heptio,
then Brendan Burns, they all left Google.
Is this a bad sign for the project and the technology?
>> John: No, I don't think so.
>> And we would say it's a spectacularly good sign.
Now, if they had left and said, ah you know, containers,
I'm going to do virtual machines.
But in fact they said,
there's such an enormous market for this.
And to have Microsoft and Azure step in and say,
we really want to invest in this space
and we want to bring on one of the co-founders, Brendan.
And for the other two co-founders,
say, hey Google is making a huge investment.
But we also think there's an opportunity
for independent venture funded startup.
>> Craig is completely passionate about this
because there is an interoperability ethos
that's always been around the open web.
>> Dan: Umhmm.
>> And certainly open source
has the same ethos.
Cloud Native brings an interesting thing,
and it's clear now to people
that there's not going to be one cloud winning them all.
>> It's a multi-could world. >> Dan: Right.
>> How is the Cloud Native Foundation floating
in the open source world?
Is it gravitating towards more infrastructure,
more edge, software edge?
Are you guys kind of in the middle?
Are you guys the glue layer?
How do you view that?
>> Sure.
So one way of looking at what we're doing is,
helping to build a stack of software.
That allows you to run your applications
either on bare metal in your own data center
or on any of the public clouds.
Or hybrid solution where you're mixing back and forth.
But the key idea is that all the core parts
of that are open source.
They're supported by multiple different vendors.
And what that means is, you get to avoid lock-it.
So today, Amazon web services has some
of the most extraordinary engineering.
They have all these great services
that make it very easy to go onboard.
But if you build your whole architecture around that,
then you're stuck with AWS forever.
And when time goes up, time to renegotiate
your contract in a year or two,
you're back again and don't have a lot of leverage.
Where we think AWS is fantastic platform to run Kubernetes,
to run our other projects on top of.
But we don't think you want to lock-in
to those services to such a degree.
>> Okay, when I'm on, first of all, pretend I'm Amazon,
I'm a competitive strategist, lock-in,
I got to get you locked-in.
I'm just going to run Kubernetes on Amazon.
Why don't I just do that?
>> We think that's a great solution.
>> John: You do? >> Heptio and lots
other folks make it very easy
to run Kubernetes on Amazon.
But we also think you should at least look at
Kubernetes on Bluemix, on Google, on Azure.
And know that in the future
when you're negotiation comes up, even if you never leave,
you at least threaten to leave.
That you're not locked into that one vendor forever.
>> So if you think about how the cloud industry structure
is starting to layout,
you knew we were going to have IAAS.
>> Dan: Umhmm.
>> SAS has been around for quite sometime.
>> Dan: Right.
>> The big question is what happens
with that platform as a service.
>> The developer world. >> Dan: Yeah.
Some people think it's going to end up
in the IAS element. >> Dan: Umhmm.
Some people end up in the SAS.
If it ends up in the IAS, you got the lock-in.
Do you see a world going forward
where developers have their own place,
where they go and build and create software
independent of either target
but then add it to the various platforms.
Is that a direction that you think
this is all going to end up in?
>> I do.
Our view is that Heroku,
which really invented this platform as a service concept
or popularized it.
You do, get push Heroku and magically your application's up.
And then Cloud Foundry which came along
and created a open source version of that.
Those were two building blocks.
But the Cloud Native essentially taking that scenario
and saying, hey, that continuous integration,
continuous deployment pipeline,
that ability to deploy your software
dozens of times per day,
that's an absolute table ante
for being a modern company.
Not just a software company but arguably every company
today needs to be doing software development like that.
And then Cloud Native is a whole set
of infrastructure around that to allow you to,
not just have that environment in development
but also to push it into production.
>> So compare and contrast,
based on your vision >> Dan: Umhmm.
>> of how things are going to play out.
A developer spends her time today doing this,
and in three years,
she's going to spend her time doing that.
Kind of give us a sense of how >> Dan: Sure.
>> you think it's going to play out.
>> The simplest way to say it is that,
Docker came along a few years ago,
and was incredibly transformative technology
for software development.
It solved this really basic problem that,
you hire a new employee
and does it take her an entire day or entire week
to get her environment together.
Or can she just copy over the document container
and be ready to go.
And so I would argue it had the fastest uptake
of any developer technology in history.
But now when you have all those pieces running,
okay, that's great in development,
how do you get it in production?
And my goal is that in a few years,
hopefully much sooner,
that those developers that are getting the container,
they're getting the different pieces
of microservices working.
And then it's this tiny little YAML file that just says,
here's the requirements for my application,
here's what kind of redundancy it needs,
what is backend databases, other sorts of things.
And they're deploying it up.
For most developers they can get out
of that business of dev-ops.
Of having to worry about all those issues.
Your dev-ops team can be so much more efficient
cuz Kubernetes and the related platform
really enables that.
>> I got to ask you, I just Tweeted cuz I had,
make sure I captured it.
I'm blown away by your success
on the sponsorship participation.
And usually it's a sign of opportunity.
Because there's money making to be made,
having the big vendors in there.
But the growth of Kubernetes as you mentioned,
all the success, we're well aware of that.
But you got a lot going on.
You're like got the tiger by the tail,
your hair's blown back,
you're running as hard as you can.
Why are you guys successful?
What is your gut?
As executive director,
you got to have the 20 mile stare
but you also implement the here and now.
>> Dan: Sure.
>> How are you rationalizing the success?
>> The most important point is,
there's not some sort of magic formula,
that CNCF has done or the Linux Foundation.
And we're just so much better promoting or marketing it.
At the end of the day,
it really comes down to the developers behind Kubernetes.
They've built a tool that tons and tons
of people want to use.
And that leverages 15 years of work that Google
has done on containerization.
Work that IBM and Docker
and all of our other member companies,
RedHat, have put together.
And now, I think tiger by the tail is the right analogy.
That we just happen to be,
luckily, do have the technology
and the constellation technology
that a lot of folks want to do.
The biggest thing we're trying to deal with is,
some of the challenges around scaling.
There's over 17 hundred authors.
Individual developers contributed
to Kubernetes in the last 12 months.
Trying to figure out how can we get good reviews
of all their codes, better documentation.
>> There is a secret formula if you look at it.
In away, relevance is one of them.
>> Dan: Umhmm.
>> Being relevant and being an awesome technology.
But what I want get your thoughts in is,
I looked at Kubernetes right out of the gate and said,
hmm, will this be a MapReduced
moment for Google. >> Dan: Yeah.
>> And interesting enough, they didn't pull the same move.
They didn't just let Cloud Air,
walk away with or someone. >> Dan: Right, exactly.
>> They made sure that if they preserved it.
Google kind of let MapReduced >> Dan: Yeah, I think--
>> on the side of the road. >> Dan: No, no, I think this--
>> Cloud Air ran with it.
>> Google had something that they replaced it with.
I mean the -- >> SPAN is pretty damn good.
>> And that's an interesting thing because
in a world of strategy, across technology,
and this is related to this,
is that it used to be, you define a process,
and then let's call it the end level process,
and then you would go off and you
make it obsolete
because you had something
that was more efficient, more effective.
And then you license the old technology.
And that way, the industry built capacity
around the old technology
and you had the new, more efficient technology
that drove your business forward.
And I think that, I'm not saying that's exactly,
I'm not saying that Google did that,
that's the tremendous >> Google knew.
>> effect it will have. >> John: I have sources
that tell me that.
I investigated this story three years ago
or maybe four, maybe three years ago.
Google had conversations going up
to the Eric Schmidt level, and Larry Page level,
do we keep Kubernetes, do we open source it?
And it went all the way to the top.
And they almost wanted, they were afraid of MapReduced.
Because MapReduced was a lost opportunity.
Now they made it up but--
>> Now I would argue that there's a slightly subtler
decision they had to make,
where they have this internal system board,
that is just tons of engineering and analysis
and improvement has gone into it.
They wrote Kubernetes as essentially
next generation version of that.
I think they kind of had four paths.
Craig McLuckie was one of the key people behind that.
Where they could have made it a proprietary service
that if you're a customer of Google cloud,
you get access to it.
That's essentially what Amazon
and Elastic Container Services today.
Or they could have said, hey, we're going to open source it
but we're still keep control of it.
Essentially that's the path they went with the Go language.
Where lots of people use it,
lots of people contribute to it,
but it's Google who decides at the end of the day,
which direction it goes.
Or they could have gone and created a Kubernetes Foundation.
And if they'd gone to the Linux Foundation and said,
we want to create a Kubernetes Foundation,
they absolutely could have
and that would have been a home for it.
But when you look at all the complementary technologies
that have come in, they would never have gone
into a Kubernetes Foundation.
So instead, they really chose the most open path of saying,
no we want to have a Cloud Native Computing Foundation.
Have Kubernetes be the anchor tenant for it.
But then have a place that companies
like Mesophere with Mesos and Docker with Docker Swarm
and other partners can come in and agree on something.
So today, we're really pleased to announce
the container network interface,
just got accepted as our 10th project.
And that's used by those and also by Cloud Foundry.
And then they can disagree on others,
about the orchestration-
>> So it's a liberating move, really,
if you think about it.
Because at the time this happened,
there was a lot of land grab talk going on.
>> Dan: Umhmm. >> Until Amazon was winning big
the hockey stick was going up. >> Dan: Right.
You saw the numbers, and financial performance.
But there was a fear of lock-in.
To your point. >> Dan: Right, exactly.
>> Then Kubernetes provides a nice layer.
And you guys as a group,
are looking holistically and saying,
choice and multi-cloud.
Is that the vision?
>> Definitely.
But, I mean you can see,
strategically why Google decided to do it.
Because if you pick an open source platform,
and say, hey, this is the best of breed approach.
Now, you're actually willing
to evaluate the cloud on what the prices are,
the supplementary services, et cetera.
Where before that, you might have just said,
ah, AWS is the safe service, I'm going just go with that.
>> But Kubernetes is an invasive technology.
And I don't mean that in a bad way.
(Dan laughs)
>> When you decide to move with Kubernetes,
you are foreclosing other options at your disposal.
And so, I think what you're saying is that,
Google wanted to ensure that it remained
a consistent coherent thing.
While at the same time,
making it obvious to all those around them
that also wanted to invest in it,
that their investments were going to be safe
and sound going forward.
>> I think that's fair but on the other hand,
I do want to say that very few companies
have moved their entire business
and all of their IT over to Kubernetes.
>> Peter: Oh, I'm not saying that they would.
>> We do recommend that they start
with a stable service. >> Peter: But Meso
and some of those other companies are now investing
in Kubernetes as a platform.
Or making a bet on Kubernetes,
want to make sure that their bets
are as good as their company is.
>> Sure. But there are other orchestration plateforms still.
So Kubernetes has plenty of competition.
And our biggest competition of course is Enertia.
Of folks not changing into anything.
>> I got to ask you a question.
So Leonard, our producer is just telling me,
Kubernetes
is boring per Craig McLuckie.
So Craig said earlier in theCUBE today,
Kubernetes needs to be boring.
He said his biggest problem with Kubernetes
is it's too exciting right now.
>> Dan: That's great.
Now what he means by that is,
he's kind of making a play on words but his point is,
it should be obstracted away. >> Dan: Yeah.
In terms of Kubernetes.
But that's a problem you have.
It's too exciting. >> Dan: Umhmm.
What's your reaction to his comment
that Kubernetes needs to be boring.
>> He and I did a little Google trends comparison
of Kubernetes and TensorFlow,
which is another open source project out of Google.
TensorFlow is something like three or four acts.
And artificial intelligence
is just so much more interesting and exciting.
And yeah, I certainly would love to see a situation.
We have this metaphor for Linux, with the Linux Foundation.
That we describe it as plumbing.
Where it's so intrinsic
to almost every piece of technology in existence.
And like plumbing,
you'll get very upset when if it stops working.
And you'll know it and you'll complain.
But there's a huge piece of what we're trying
to do which is the infrastructure to make things work.
>> Here's an idea. Marketing idea.
Just call it AI for containers.
>> Dan: That's good.
>> It'll be the hottest thing on the planet.
>> Dan, great to--
>> Peter: Probably be more be more exciting.
>> Dan, great to see you.
Congratulations on your success.
>> Yeah. So I do want to just make a quick mention
December sixth through eighth
is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon.
It's our biggest annual conference.
We're looking to actually triple in size
from Seattle to three thousand people or more.
We have every expert coming in.
Michelle Noorali and Kelsey Hightower
are the co-chairs and are going to be speaking there.
We would love to see a lot of you guys.
>> John: In Austin. >> In Austin.
>> We hope you'll be there. >> TheCUBE will be there.
>> We'll definitely be there. >> Dan: As well to ah,
>> We've been to the inaugural >> Dan: Exactly.
>> show for KubeCon and Cloud Native conference.
We'll defintely be there.
December sixth through the eighth,
in December, in Austin.
Great time of the year to be in Texas.
Congratulations on all your success.
And as Kubernetes
and nine other projects
continue to get traction.
Still exciting times.
And as they say, we live in interesting times.
(Dan laughs)
This is theCUBE with more interesting, exciting,
not boring stuff coming back
from the inaugural event here at Cisco DevNet Create.
I'm John Ferrier, Peter Burris.
Stay with us.