[upbeat theme music]
You have always been, I mean, one of the loudest
and proudest LGBTQ activists out there.
Like, you became just like, the archetype
for what people hoped trans people could achieve,
not just in acting, but in any field.
You've come out with a new documentary now
that you are a part of and you've produced as well,
and it's called "Disclosure."
And what I loved about it is it's a documentary taking us
through how trans people have been portrayed by Hollywood
and the entertainment industry for so long.
Tell me why you chose to go with this route.
I am obsessed with looking back in history
to help us understand why we are where we are now.
And there's so much that hasn't been done
around looking at trans history on so many different levels.
And because my work is in the media,
and I'm obsessed with media, and want to get, do better,
and want the media to do better, it made a lot of sense.
We don't even think about it.
From the time we're kids, we're receiving images,
we're receiving images, and images and video,
and we just start to assemble the world in our minds.
There's no denying that trans has,
for a very long time, been a punchline.
Trans has been always displayed as the other,
the scary, the punchline, it's been this thing.
Over the past few years, we've started seeing the change.
But when you look at it as somebody who is trans,
have you seen a big change?
Has that change been enough?
Enough is relative, right?
Like, one of the things that film grapples with is
that there is indeed unprecedented representation
of trans folks in the media
that really probably began about six years ago.
And Sam, our director, Sam Feder,
noted that whenever there's increased visibility
of a marginalized community,
there's often backlash and there's often increased violence.
And that is exactly what we're seeing
with the increased murders of Black trans women,
and with the legislative assault as well.
So yes, things have gotten better in terms of visibility,
and then there has been a backlash that we're seeing.
And I think one of the most critical things
that we should all remember is how the technique
of divide and conquer works
to divide marginalized people, right?
So I was so beautifully moved when I saw
that protest for Black trans lives, right?
A little over a week ago.
-In Brooklyn, yeah. -And so many people,
yeah, and here in LA as well,
where folks were declaring that Black trans lives matter,
that we understand that all Black folks are affected
by systemic racism and that we have to come together,
and we, all marginalized people have to come together.
Here's a question I have for you that's a difficult one,
and I would only ask you because I'm comfortable with you.
But how do you think we get to the place
where people can acknowledge their discomfort
and their misunderstanding of a thing,
whilst not offending or discriminating
against the other person?
How would you encourage that?
In the same way we're having conversations around race,
how would you say to people,
"Hey, let's try and encourage just a movement
"in and around trans awareness?"
I think we have to really learn
how to sit with discomfort, period, right?
I think whenever we're called upon
to interrogate our internalized racism,
our internalized transphobia,
and we all internalize these things as Americans,
probably as citizens of the world,
and so we each have to be able to sit with that discomfort.
I think so often when we come up against something
that is uncomfortable for us,
often we go into this defense mode.
We go into fight, flight, or freeze.
"Oh my god, someone call me transphobic,
"then I have to immediately defend that,"
instead of taking a breath and taking a moment,
and sitting with the discomfort of maybe being called out.
"Maybe you weren't wrong, maybe you were."
We all have to struggle.
So I think a lot of it's about learning
how to sit with discomfort,
not going into fight, flight, or freeze
so we can actually hear what the criticism
and the critique is, and then understanding
that being uncomfortable does not mean
that you are unsafe, right?
So there's a difference between...
With the bathroom conversation,
just makes me think so much about,
'cause for a really long...
For several years, it was all about bathrooms--
-Right, right, right. -Banning trans people
from bathrooms, right?
In the segregated south, white folks were not comfortable
with Black people in the bathroom with them,
but did that mean that they were unsafe?
And so what does it mean for us to sit with discomfort?
What does it mean for us to really ask ourselves,
"Are we not safe or are we just uncomfortable?"
I know you've been working on programs to try
and help trans people break into the industry
just behind the cameras, and you're really pushing
for how trans people are portrayed on screen.
What are the big changes you think we need to make?
I think the piece is how do we have diverse people
in positions of power, right?
One of the things I'm most proud of with "Disclosure" is
that everyone on screen is trans
and most of the people working
behind the scenes on the crew are also trans.
And in the case when we couldn't find someone trans
to fill a role, we had a fellowship program
where we had a cisgender person trained a trans person.
But it's not just about what Cornel West calls,
"putting Black faces in high places," right?
It's not just about sort of putting diverse people
in the same sort of corrupt systems.
We have to change the way that power works.
And so much of that is about, I believe,
changing the material conditions of poor and working people,
the people who are the most marginalized,
get them opportunities to work in the industry
behind the scenes and then be truly elevated
to positions of power to not just occupy the same sort
of corrupt systems, but to change the system.
[upbeat theme music]
Please welcome Joey Whimple and Jennifer Marie Long.
[audience cheering and applauding]
-Welcome to the show. -Thank you.
Thank you very much for being here.
[cheering drowns out Joey]
Let's get straight into the topic
and the day as it happened.
Donald Trump tweeted out this message
essentially banning transgender service members
from serving in the military.
Let's talk about the impact, first and foremost,
what would the possible impact be
if that were to happen right now to somebody
who was serving in the military as a transgender person?
The immediate piece, you're looking at a reduction
of force by nearly 15,000 service members across the board
that serve in various segments,
all branches, different skillsets.
Some are highly-regarded skillsets
that are very valuable to the military.
That is an immediate reduction
that you're looking at, a force reduction.
So America as a whole loses military personnel--
-They lose the top talent. -For helping keep
-the country safe. -Absolutely.
On a personal level, on a professional level,
what does that mean to you
as a transgender person who was serving,
because you are now both veterans.
But as someone who is actively serving,
what would that mean for you?
Someone who is actively serving?
Well, the past administration made a lot
of strides in order to lift this ban,
and there was a lot of promise that was set.
And individuals felt that comfort,
that safety net to come out in their units.
And when they're working in these
strenuous environments and such,
and they felt that comfort to come out and say,
"Hey, you know, I identify this way."
And now the rug, the carpet's being
completely ripped out from underneath.
And it just leaves this question
of uncertainty, "What's next?"
There's just those three tweets.
We haven't seen any legislation, anything of the sort.
We have no idea what this means.
When you say the rug has been pulled out,
what does that mean specifically?
Well, you think of the service members,
those that are serving actively.
Many of 'em had come out based
on the last administration allowing open service.
So then they were kind of lured into the open.
And now at the same time, now as they're in the open,
now their careers are in danger.
Most of 'em are career soldiers.
Those are the ones that made a career
out of serving in the military, serving worldwide,
globally with those demands.
And now that's in jeopardy.
Many have families, this impacts their families as well.
So now you're looking at getting literally fired
from the military, being unemployed,
and the main change to your family.
How devastating would that be to any individual
who showed up to work and somebody finds out
that their whole department's gonna be closed
or their job is in jeopardy?
Now, it's not just fired when it's the military.
There is also the issue of how you are discharged.
That's an important issue.
Is that something that would concern
an active service member?
-Absolutely -Yes, absolutely,
because that discharge code is everything.
It's education benefits, it's health benefits,
it's the lead into a new job.
They can never work in the federal government again
with a dishonorable discharge
or anything underneath honorable.
So it leaves that uncertainty for them completely.
When we look at what the president said
with regards to disruption, again,
message that's echoed through multiple places,
you hear people saying,
"This is disruptive to the military.
"The fact that you are transgender is causing us
"to have this discussion and now people are not focusing
"on fighting and you are causing a problem."
Do you feel that you are causing a problem?
Do you feel that you being transgender
is disrupting what's happening?
Absolutely not, no.
I feel as if it is more or less something that's new
and individuals are afraid of change,
such as those that are in charge of our country.
Therefore, if a car is breaking down
and there's a problem with the engine,
you don't scrap the entire car.
You work on it piece by piece to bring it up.
I feel as if this is just a tiny piece
of the military that people are afraid of
because it's uncharted waters.
And more or less and I feel as if this is
just something that can be worked with.
But did you experience, I mean,
as someone who was in command,
did you experience people reacting differently to you?
Did you notice your soldiers maybe not being
as focused as they would have been
because of what you were experiencing?
Most that had occurred in my career at the very end.
In the end, I wasn't allowed to serve openly.
The very few last weeks of my career,
word got out that I was transgender
and that I was in fact living another life,
and the command called me up and asked me to retire quietly.
So my career ended with a phone call asking to retire.
And I was retired not with great fanfare,
not with the proper circumstances
that comes to someone of a senior enlisted.
I was a sergeant major.
That's the highest of enlisted ranks.
I advised senior officers on operations.
I handled troop welfare.
These are the most trusted jobs in the military.
And I was doing it up until that moment,
until they found out.
And interestingly enough, after so much time,
many of 'em now understand.
And they get it and they're,
I'm friends with them and I talk to them.
We've had conversations on it.
And far as the readiness that's concerned,
it's more of a misnomer.
First of all, statistically,
we're not a large volume of soldiers.
It's not like we're talking about half the US Army.
There was a bigger factor when we talked about
in the time of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
Everybody had the same fears, the same fears existed.
And in those same fears was
how is it gonna impact readiness?
Same conversations we had.
The military went to great lengths in briefing soldiers
and doing studies and figuring out how it was gonna work.
And I gave those briefings
to my soldiers and to the battalion.
I gave those briefings on open service, myself.
And it was interesting because the command wondered
how many were gonna come out
and what was it gonna be like in the force,
how are we gonna handle it?
And when it was all said and done
and the day they actually changed, you know what happened?
Nothing, nothing changed.
Force was still the same.
Everybody still served the way they did.
So it impacted readiness.
And we already have open service.
So there's service members now,
15,000 service members right now
serving on active duty openly.
So if there's no disruption there, and it's not,
like General Mattis isn't saying,
"We have a problem with force and readiness,"
then it's not an issue.
Right now, the only reason it's hasn't completed
was the military was still completing the study
on new service members entering the service
on exactly what the protocols were gonna be.
But the fact of open service was there.
And I even bring it to the fact of look at other nations.
There are about 14 other nations
that have transgender folks serving openly.
Two of our largest partners,
you got Britain and Australia.
I mean, you have multiple nations
that's have service members, the Israeli forces have it,
and they serve with distinction without issue.
So when you look at other armies,
we're not approaching something new.
This is something that has been proven
and we still show our ability to serve.
[upbeat theme music]
Now as women of color especially,
we always have to worry about representation, right?
And I know you want to be an example
of a happy trans person in the media.
Why is that important to you?
Well, all that media has been concerned with a lot
of the time is telling the transition story.
Telling the trauma, telling the effect
that it did on the family, but not showing
why we go through all that and how happy,
like being so adamant about making yourself
feel comfortable in your own skin.
That's the whole reason why we do the transition.
It isn't to like hurt or harm
or traumatize our families or anyone else.
It is to be our true happy selves.
And we are missing that a lot.
-[cheering and applauding] -That makes sense.
And, I don't want it to get like misconstrued
that I wanna be a representation
of only I'm a happy trans person.
There are so many happy, well-adjusted, loving trans people
but you only see us getting murdered and beaten.
So to be able to normalize the fact
that you probably have come into contact with three
or four trans people every day and not even know it.
Because we are everywhere and we're not going anywhere.
[audience cheering and applauding]
Well, I can definitely understand that
because being a woman of color,
and a plus size woman of color in this industry,
you spend a lot of time where it's like
"Oh, well you're plus size, you must be unhappy."
-And it's like, no, I'm not. -No.
-Also I'm very pretty, one-- -No, the skinny girls
are unhappy 'cause they hungry.
[audience laughing and applauding]
-The skinny girls are hungry. -They're very hungry.
Girl, I was at a diner at 3:00 AM
and I saw this drunk white girl eating a salad
and I'm like, that's not what you want.
[audience laughing]
That's not what anyone wants.
-At 3:00 AM? -You want fries!
You are drunk at 3:00 AM, why you eating lettuce?
Eat the fries, girl!
[audience laughing]
You are in a track suit, you're in yoga pants, it's working.
Eat the fries!
[audience laughing]
Drunk and a salad, you gonna be sick.
[audience laughing]
Now, I have to ask this question.
Because we know we have to ask this question.
Now, you won "Drag Race"
at a time where drag is being politicized
for absolutely no reason.
[Dulcé exhales]
What do you think they're really trying to do?
Well, I mean,
the legislation, I don't want to be like political
and say like this, I mean, you know,
-the conservatives. -Oh, we can talk about the
-government, the government-- -The conservatives.
[Dulcé] Because you know, they out here
-actin' a donkey, right. -Yeah.
[audience laughing]
It's always about these white men kind of trying
to control people's bodies.
So they're were doing,
controlling women's reproductive rights,
controlling our medicine, like a basic human right
of giving trans people and like,
even like anyone, good healthcare.
So it's always about controlling.
And I always noticed that these guys,
they're not really killing a lot of like trans men.
There's a lot of trans women being murdered.
That's because these men objectify trans women
as much as they objectify cis women.
So once they objectify you
and you're living your truth, they get so mad.
Because they're, one,
jealous that they're not living their truth, and two,
-because it makes them question -[audience applauding]
"Why do I like this?"
Like, but why do you have to question that?
Why does that even have to be a thing, you know?
So for all of them, just,
I think they just wanna be in drag.
-Or they probably went in drag -[audience laughing]
and then they looked awful.
Santos.
Listen, you hop in drag,
you find out you're a booger, and you...
-Bitter, bitter booger. -Bitter, bitter booger.
-Honey. -And you're like,
-"You know what?" -"Ban 'em all."
"This FreeTress wig might not be for me."
So she couldn't find a mother.
-She couldn't find a mother. -She couldn't, they said,
"No, lost cause."
[all laughing]
-Now-- -Call CPS.
Listen, call CPS, oh my goodness.
Nothing like calling CPS on a 45-year-old man.
Like, "Not on his children, sir, on you.
"You need adult supervision."
Uh-huh, this is true, this is true.
So with all these anti-drag bills
that they're starting to pass places,
is that affecting where you can work?
Yes, I'm a little nervous to go to Tennessee
and I do have a booking there in like a month or so.
You could be committing crime!
I mean, technically, walking,
like standing foot down there,
I'm breaking the law for some reason, you know?
It's insane, there's--
[Dulcé] Even when you're in girl drag?
Well, like, so if you are...
I'm not too sure exactly,
but I've heard from my queen friends,
like Aura, she lives in Tennessee,
like you can get in drag at the venue.
But to be out like walking from your car to the venue,
if you're in drag, you're breaking the law.
So someone like me who doesn't,
this is what it's made for.
I can't get outta drag, I'm trans woman.
-'Cause you're a woman. -So I'm gonna be breaking
the law and that's what they want.
Oh, 'cause they're trying to say you're--
It's a roundabout way to get trans people controlled.
So they're trying to say you're
in drag when you're really just
-wearing a woman's-- -Yeah, well, because
the legislation, I believe,
like the wording is if you're in an article of clothing
that is not your assigned-birth article of clothing,
that's how they can roundabout say that drag is illegal.
And then the real thing is being trans is illegal.
[Audience Member] What?
-[audience gasping] -Oh that, I didn't--
Don't you know that?
-[audience laughing] -Girl.
They live in New York, they think they free.
-I know we live in a, -[audience laughing]
we live in a good left bubble.
It's a, listen, I've had a lot of people try to con me
and tell me that New York wasn't racist, go outside.
[audience laughing]
-[upbeat theme music] -♪ Hey, hey, hey, hey ♪