AT THE TOP.
HARRY LIPTON JOINS US, FORMER
DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY
GENERAL AND KATIE BENNER, I WILL
READ MORE FROM THE PIECE.
FIRST, YOUR REACTION TO SEEING
THESE CONTEMPORANEOUS NOTES FROM
THESE OFFICIALS YOU COVERED AND
WROTE ABOUT AT THE TIME TO NOW
SEE IN THEIR OWN WORDS WHAT THEY
WERE WRITING DOWN AS TRUMP GAVE
THEM DIRECTION.
YOUR THOUGHTS?
>> I HAD TWO IMMEDIATE
RESPONSES.
ONE I WAS REALLY STRUCK BY HOW
SIMILAR THIS CONVERSATION WAS TO
THE CONVERSATION THAT TRUMP HAD
WITH THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE
WHEN HE WAS ASKING HIM TO
ANNOUNCE AN INVESTIGATION TO
HUNDREDOR BIDEN TO UNDERMINE
BIDEN’S CAMPAIGN.
HE DIDN’T NECESSARILY WANT THE
INVESTIGATIONS CONDUCTED.
HE JUST WANTED THEM ANNOUNCED.
VERY SIMILARLY HE UNDERSTOOD
THAT AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM
ANY ENTITY WITH ANY SORT OF
GRAVITAS WOULD CARRY WITH IT A
MESSAGE SO DISRUPTIVE AND, TWO,
I WAS STRUCK BY HOW MUCH INSIGHT
WE HAVE INTO CONVERSATIONS
BETWEEN A PRESIDENT AND HIS
CABINET.
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT NEVER
WANTS TO RELEASE THAT
INFORMATION.
THERE IS THE SPECTOR REVEALING
SENSITIVE CONVERSATIONS THAT
HOLD PEOPLE UP TO SCRUTINY THAT
NO EXECUTIVE BRANCH WANTS.
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS TOLD
CONGRESS AND OTHERS BECAUSE OF
CIRCUMSTANCES, THE CONTEXT OF
THE INVESTIGATION AND THEY CAN
LOOK AT WHETHER OR NOT THE
PRESIDENT WAS TRYING TO SUBVERT
THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.
THIS IS SO UNUSUAL.
>> THE OTHER THING THAT IS SO
REMARKABLE, YOU HAVE KEVIN
McCARTHY’S CAUCUS NOT JUST
OBSTRUCTING ACCOUNTABILITY FOR A
PRESIDENT WHO PUT ALL THEIR
LIVES IN DANGER AND MIKE PENCE’S
LIFE IN DANGER AND HIS FAMILY’S,
BUT THEY’RE SMEARING THE
WITNESSES OF THE SELECT
COMMITTEE INVESTIGATING JANUARY
6th AND OTHER THAN THE POLITICAL
DEPRAVITY I DO SOMETIMES WONDER
WHAT’S BEHIND IT.
IN DONALD TRUMP’S MIND HIS COUP
ACCOMPLICES AS COMMUNICATED TO
ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL ROSEN
AND RICHARD DONOGHUE, DOES THIS
PUT NEW SCRUTINY ON THEM?
>> IT CERTAINLY DOES GIVE PEOPLE
REASON TO SCRUTINIZE CONGRESS
AND WHETHER OR NOT LAWMAKERS
WERE WORKING WITH THE CONGRESS
BUT I DO NEED TO POINT OUT THAT
IN THAMES OF JORDAN’S AND
JOHNSON’S OFFICE THEY PUT OUT
STATEMENTS DENYING ANY KNOWLEDGE
OF THIS.
THEY SAY THEY WERE NEVER
INVOLVED IN ANY ATTEMPTS TO
SUBVERT THE RESULTS OF THE
ELECTION.
I WILL REMINE EVERYBODY THAT
CONGRESSMAN PERRY WAS WORKING
CLOSELY WITH AN OFFICIAL INSIDE
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN ORDER
TO GET THE DEPARTMENT TO
ANNOUNCE INVESTIGATION NOOSE
VOTER FRAUD ALL OTHER OFFICIALS
DEEMED COMPLETELY INVALID AFTER
INVESTIGATING THEMSELVES.
CONGRESSMAN PERRY WAS INVOLVED
WITH MR. CLARK AND HIS HE WAS TO
MAKE SOME SORT OF ANNOUNCEMENT
THAT WOULD HAVE IMPACTED THE
RESULTS OF THE ELECTION.
>> HARRY, I WANT TO READ MORE
FROM KATIE’S REPORTING BUT I
WANT YOUR FIRST REACTION TO JUST
SEEING THE OTHER ECHO TO THE
CALL WAS THE MEETINGS TO LET
FLYNN GO.
THERE WAS NEVER A MOMENT WHERE
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES OPERATED AS THOUGH HIS
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND FBI WERE
THERE TO PROTECT THE COUNTRY.
THEY WERE ALWAYS THERE TO
PROTECT HIM.
>> AND SO THAT’S AN UNVARYING
THRU LINE.
I LIKE KATIE’S POINT OF THE
ANALOGY TO UKRAINE HERE.
IT IS TRUMP’S M.O., FIRST THE
PEOPLE ARE TALKING AND ANY PORT
IN A STORM.
THE ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL
HERE, BUT THAT IS NOT A HIGH
LEVEL OFFICIAL.
THE ONE THROUGH A PERIOD THAT
TRUMP NOW TURNS TO TO MAKE THIS
HAPPEN AND, BY THE WAY, IT
COULDN’T HAVE BEEN MORE
FLAGRANTLY IMPROPER.
THE EXACT THING THE DEPARTMENT
OF JUSTICE NEVER CAN DO IS
SIMPLY ANNOUNCE SOMETHING
CORRUPT WITHOUT TAKING ACTION.
THEY MUST FILE A LAWSUIT BASED
ON EVIDENCE.
NOTHING HERE, PROBABLY NO
LAWSUIT TO BRING.
AGAIN, JUST GIVE ME THAT TALKING
POINT.
AND WHO ARE THE FOLKS?
THIS IS THE FIRST FRUIT OF WHAT
WILL BE A VERY LARGE HARVEST
FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
OPINION TWO DAYS AGO SAYING
THERE’S NO EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE.
THEY ARE GOING TO CALL TO
TESTIFY RICHARD DONOGHUE. HE PUT DOWN CONGRESSIONAL
HE PUT DOWN CONGRESSIONAL
COLLEAGUES.
HE HAS NO REASON TO NOT ANSWER.
THE CLOAK HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY.
THIS WILL BE AMPLIFIED AND A LOT
MORE WHERE THIS CAME FROM.
>> LET ME ADD TO OUR
CONVERSATION, MY FRIEND NBC NEWS
AND MSNBC NATIONAL AFFAIRS
ANALYST, ALSO THE HOST AND
EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF SHOW
TIME’S "THE CIRCUS" JUST
NOMINATED FOR AN EMMY AS WELL AS
A PODCAST.
>> I’VE JUST LOST SOUND.
>> CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?
>> YES, IT’S OKAY.
>> OKAY.
SO, JOHN, WHEN YOU READ THROUGH
THE REPORTING HERE AND YOU HEAR HARRY’S ANALYSIS AND THE
HARRY’S ANALYSIS AND THE
PARALLELS, YOUR REACTION?
MY REACTION IS THIS IS THE 1.27
MILLION SHOCKING FROM OUR TIME
TOGETHER, NICOLLE, TALKING ABOUT
DONALD TRUMP.
FROM ANY OTHER PRESIDENT IN ANY
OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE WE WOULD BE
HAVING CORONARIES AND YET FROM
DONALD TRUMP OF COURSE THIS WAS
THE CASE.
RELATED TO TRUMP AND BILL BARR,
I DON’T KNOW HOW MANY WEEKS AGO
WE HAD THE NEWS BROKEN ABOUT THE
LAST EXCHANGES, WE KNOW WHAT
TRUMP WAS DOING FROM NOVEMBER
7th ON WARD.
FRUSTRATED OVER THE FACT BILL
BARR WOULDN’T DO WHAT HE WANTED
TO DO.
NOW HE’S REACHING OUT TO WHAT HE
THINKS NOW ARE MORE PLIABLE
LACKIES ASKING THEM TO CONFIRM
HIS VERSION AND THE LAST THING,
TO HARRY’S POINT, THE LAST THING
IN THE WORLD HE WANTS IS FOR THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO
ACTUALLY -- I MEAN, OF COURSE HE
WOULD LOVE THEM TO FILE A
LAWSUIT.
HE DOES NOT WANT THEM TO
FOLLOW -- WANT THEM TO FOLLOW
NORMS OR PRECEDENT.
WHAT HE WANTS IS THAT PHRASE
WHICH IS JUST LEAVE IT TO ME AND
MY COLLEAGUES AND MY ENABLERS
AND MY ALLIES IN CONGRESS IS THE
WAY TRUMP LOOKED AT EVERYTHING
WITH RESPECT TO THE RULE OF LAW.
DON’T WORRY ABOUT THE RULE OF
LAW, NORMS, WHAT THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT HAS EVER DONE IN THE
PAST.
JUST LEAVE IT TO ME COULD BE
DONALD TRUMP’S -- THE EPITAPH
FOR DONALD TRUMP’S PRESIDENCY.
I AM, OF COURSE, STUNNED THAT
THESE THINGS TOOK PLACE AND YET
UTTERLY UNSURPRISED.
THIS IS A PERFECT, BE LIKE SO
MANY THINGS, A PERFECT
ENCAPSULATION HOW DONALD TRUMP
THOUGHT OF HIS WHOLE PRESIDENCY