>>> THE GRAPHIC AND DISTURBING ACCOUNT OF SEXUAL ASSAULT
AGAINST WRITER E. JEAN CARROLL
HAS BEEN CONFIRMED BY TWO
CONTEMPORANEOUS WITNESSES TO THE
ACCOUNT.
ACCOUNT. WHO FRIENDS OF CARROLL WHO SHE
CONFIDED IN AT THE TIME OF THE
ALLEGED ATTACK FROM DONALD TRUMP
AT BERGDORF GOODMANS.
SHE SPOKE EXCLUSIVELY TO THE
TIMES PODCAST.
TIMES PODCAST. >> AND I SAID, WHAT HE RAPED
YOU?
YOU? AND I SAID, HE PULLED DOWN MY
TIGHTS.
TIGHTS. HE PULLED DOWN MY TIGHTS.
>> AND LISA WAS EMPHATIC, WHAT
YOU’RE DESCRIBING IS A RAPE AND
YOU SHOULD DO TO POLICE.
>> IT WAS HORRIBLE WE THOUGHT.
AND I SAID LET’S GO TO THE
POLICE.
POLICE. NO.
NO. COME TO MY HOUSE.
NO, I WANT TO GO HOME.
I’LL TAKE YOU TO THE POLICE.
NO.
NO. IT WAS 15 MINUTES OF MY LIFE,
IT’S OVER.
IT’S OVER. DON’T EVER TELL ANYBODY.
I JUST HAD TO TELL YOU.
>> E. JEAN I THINK AT THIS POINT
STARTED LAUGHING WAS NOT SEEING
THIS WITHIN A CRIMINAL AN
ACTION, A FIGHT, NOT A CRIME.
IT WAS I HAD A STRUGGLE WITH A
GUY.
GUY. >> YOU FELT YOU ENCOURAGED IT
PROBABLY.
PROBABLY. >> OH, YEAH, I KNOW I DID.
I KNOW I DID.
OH, ADVISE YOU, LINGERIE, GREAT.
IT WAS GETTING BETTER AND
BETTER.
BETTER. >> SO YOU FELT RESPONSIBILITY
FOR WHAT HAD HAPPENED?
>> 100%.
>> 100%. >> THE PRESIDENT DENIED
CARROLL’S ALLEGATIONS SAYING
THAT E. JEAN CARROLL ISN’T HIS
TYPE.
TYPE. JOINING US NOW, MEGHAN TUOHY,
INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER FOR "THE
NEW YORK TIMES."
YOU HAVE DONE SUCH A SERVICE
WITH THIS REPORTING AND TODAY’S
DAILY.
DAILY. I READ MOST OF THE BOOK.
I SAW MOST OF E. JEAN’S
APPEARANCES AND THERE’S
SOMETHING, THERE’S NO
STEREOTYPICAL WAY TO BE A VICTIM
OF SEXUAL ASSAULT OR RAPE AS HER
FRIEND DESCRIBES THIS ACCOUNT.
BUT THERE’S SOMETHING THAT YOU
UNCOVER IN THESE INTERVIEWS THAT
IS SO PERSONAL TO HER.
SHE DOESN’T WANT TO CALL IT A
RAPE THAT MAKES THE ACCOUNT
CONFUSING TO THE READER.
JUST TAKE US THROUGH WHAT E.
JEAN DESCRIBED TO YOU, WHAT THAT
ATTACK SOUNDED LIKE TO YOU AND
WHAT HER FRIENDS, THE IMPACT OF
HER FRIENDS WHO CORROBORATED
HEARING THIS ACCOUNT AT THE
TIME.
TIME. >> FIRST OF ALL, I DON’T THINK
YOU’RE ALONE.
YOU’RE ALONE. I THINK THERE HAS BEEN PEOPLE
WHO SINCE THIS STORY, SINCE THIS
ACCOUNT FIRST EMERGED LAST
FRIDAY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE
CONFUSED AND NOT SURE WHAT TO
MAKE OF IT.
MOST OF THE WOMEN WHO CAME OUT
WITH ALLEGATIONS AGAINST DONALD
TRUMP DID SO DURING THE
PRESIDENTIAL RACE IN 2016.
THEY WANTED TO HELP INFORM THE
PUBLIC, INFORM VOTERS.
THAT’S NOT THE CASE HERE WITH E.
JEAN.
JEAN. THIS IS -- THIS IS AN ACCOUNT
AMONG MANY THAT ARE IN THIS BOOK
THAT IS GOING TO BE COMING OUT
JULY 2, THIS TUESDAY.
SHE SAID SHE DIDN’T WANT TO
SPEAK UP DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL
RACE, AS SHE TELLS IT, SHE HAS
NOT SPOKEN ABOUT THIS ALLEGED
ATTACK SINCE IT HAPPENED IN THE
MID-’90s.
MID-’90s. BUT WHAT HAPPENED MID-2017 SHE
DECIDED, SHE’S A LONG-TERM
ADVICE COLUMNIST FOR "ELLE"
MAGAZINE AND SHE DECIDED SHE WAS
GOING TO -- AFTER GETTING
COUNTLESS MESSAGES FOR READERS
OVER THE YEARS WHICH ALWAYS SEEM
TO COME BACK TO THE PROBLEM OF
MEN, SHE DECIDED SHE WOULD HEAD
OUT ON THE ROAD GONE TO TOWNS
NAMED AFTER WOMEN AND GET OUT OF
HER CAR AND TALK TO PEOPLE
ABOUT -- SHE WAS GOING TO ASK
THE WOMEN, WHY DO WE NEED MEN?
I HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO
COMPLAINTS FOR SO MANY YEARS,
WHY DO WE NEED MEN?
WHAT’S THE CASE FOR MEN?
WHAT HAPPENED WHEN SHE WAS ON
THE ROAD TRIP THE HARVEY
WEINSTEIN STORY BREAKS.
SHE SAID BY DAY SHE WAS
INTERVIEWING PEOPLE.
INTERVIEWING PEOPLE. BY NIGHT SHE WAS GETTING FLOODED
WITH MESSAGES FROM "ELLE"
READERS AND OTHERS SEEKING HER
ADVICE BECAUSE THEY WERE HAVING
THEIR OWN RECKONINGS ABOUT
SEXUAL ASSAULT AND HARASSMENT
AND SHE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN
HER LIFE SAID I NEED TO HAVE MY
OWN PERSONAL RECKING ABOUT THIS
SO SHE SAT DOWN AND STARTED TO
MAKE A LIST OF HIDEOUS MEN SHE
ENCOUNTERED, GOING BACK TO BOYS
IN CHILDHOOD SHE ATTRIBUTED BAD
BEHAVIOR AND INCLUDING DONALD
TRUMP.
TRUMP. THAT GETS ENFOLDED IN THIS BOOK.
THIS IS NOT A BIG TELL-ALL.
SHE DID NOT GET A LOT OF MONEY
FOR THIS BOOK.
YET THIS BOOK IS COMING OUT.
THERE WAS AN EXCERPT THAT CAME
OUT IN "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE.
THIS ALLEGATION OF AN ENCOUNTER
WITH TRUMP IN THE MID-’90s AT
BERGDORF’S, WHERE THEY SORT OF
BUMPED INTO EACH OTHER AND HAD A
PLAYFUL BANTER THAT LED TO THE
LINGERIE CHANGE ROOM AT WHICH
POINT HE PUSHED HER UP AGAINST
THE WALL AND PULLED DOWN HER
TIGHTS AND PENETRATED HER, SHE
FOUGHT BACK AND FLED THE ROOM
AND WHEN SHE WAS OUTSIDE PICKED
UP THE PHONE AND CALLED ONE OF
TWO FRIENDS.
TWO FRIENDS. >> AND WITHIN A FEW DAYS TOLD A
SECOND FRIEND.
SECOND FRIEND. YOU INTERVIEWED BOTH OF THEM.
AS SOMEBODY WHO COVERS
WEINSTEIN --
WEINSTEIN -- >> YES.
>> YES. >> WE’RE GLAD YOU BACK.
WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF SOMEONE
WHO COULD CORROBORATE AN ACCOUNT
AT THE TIME?
>> ONCE AGAIN, SHE COMES OUT
WITH HER ACCOUNT OF WHAT
HAPPENED AND AN EXCERPT OF THIS
BOOK THAT WILL BE COMING OUT AND
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS NOT
CLEAR, I MEAN SHE SAYS THERE
WEREN’T ANY WITNESSES, THERE’S
NO HARD EVIDENCE THAT THERE’S
REALLY A HE SAID/SHE SAID AND
TRUMP’S CLAIMING SHE’S NEVER MET
HER, THAT THIS DIDN’T HAPPEN.
SHE’S NOT HIS TYPE, WHICH IS ONE
OF HIS COMMENT RESPONSES IN THE
FACE OF THESE ALLEGATIONS, AND
SO WHAT YOU’RE DOING AS
REPORTERS, YOU KNOW, I HAVE
REPORTED ON THESE TYPES OF
STORIES IS YOU’RE LOOKING, OKAY,
DID YOU TELL ANYBODY ELSE AT THE
TIME?
TIME? WERE THERE ANY PEOPLE TO WHOM
YOU REPORTED THIS, WHETHER IT
WAS THE AUTHORITIES OR FRIENDS
OR FAMILY?
OR FAMILY? AND IF SO, WE GOT TO TALK TO
THEM.
THEM. SO THESE TWO WOMEN ARE INCLUDED
AS CORROBORATORS, UNNAMED
CORROBORATORS IN THE BOOK AND
HAD BEEN DOING THAT ON THE PHONE
TO REPORTERS WHO BEEN COVERING
THE STORY BUT OVER THE PAST WEEK
I AND MY COLLEAGUES AT "THE NEW
YORK TIMES" REALLY PRESSED
FORWARD WITH THE CASE SAYING
IT’S VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO
COME OUT WITH YOUR OWN NAMES AND
RECALL YOUR RECOLLECTIONS OF
WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU RECEIVED
THESE REPORTS OF THIS ALLEGED
ATTACK.
ATTACK. AND THAT’S WHAT HAPPENED
YESTERDAY IN THE SIT-DOWN
INTERVIEW WITH TWO OF THE WOMEN.
>> PART OF THE REASON YOU MIGHT
HAVE BEEN IN THAT SITUATION, AND
WE WERE IN THAT SITUATION AS
WELL, IN THE WAY SHE TALKED
ABOUT IT -- AGAIN, THERE’S NO
RIGHT WAY TO TALK ABOUT BEING A
VICTIM OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, BUT I
WONDER, YOUR PAPER BECAME PART
OF THE STORY BY PUTTING OUT A
STATEMENT SAYING WE HAVEN’T YET
BEEN ABLE TO CORROBORATE THE
ACCOUNT E. JEAN OFFERS.
YOU WENT OUT AND DP THATID THAT
REPORTING, WHICH YOU DID TODAY.
DO YOU HAVE WHAT YOU VIEW AS A
ACCOUNT OF SEXUAL ASSAULT?
>> I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF
WAYS TO ASSESS THE CREDIBILITY
OF THE ACCUSATION.
YOU HAVE TWO FRIENDS, ALL
LONG-TERM PROFESSIONAL WOMEN IN
NEW YORK.
NEW YORK. THEY WERE IN THE MEDIA CIRCLES
IN NEW YORK IN THE SORT OF
HEYDAY OF NEW YORK MEDIA.
>> IT’S MY FAVORITE PART OF THE
DAILY IS LISTENING TO THE THREE
OF THEM TALK OF -- THEY WERE
TRAIL BLAZERS IN EVERY WAY,
WOMEN IN MEDIA.
THEY WERE SO PROUD.
AND IT’S NOT UNRELATED TO E.
JEAN’S UNWILLINGNESS TO DESCRIBE
HERSELF AS A RAPE VICTIM.
>> THAT’S RIGHT.
I THINK THERE ARE MANY WOMEN IN
THE ME TOO ERA WHO HAD
ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST YEAR AND
A HALF CAME OUT AND SAID I’M A
SURVIVOR OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, I’M
A SURVIVOR OF RAIN.
SHE DOES NOT FRAME HERSELF THAT
WAY.
WAY. SHE SAYS AT THE TIME OF THE
ATTACK SHE FELT LIKE IT WAS HER
FAULT, SHE MADE THE MISTAKE OF
GOING INTO THIS DRESSING ROOM
WITH HIM, THEY WERE KIND OF
PLAYFULLY CHALLENGING THE OTHER
PERSON TO TRY TON LOUNGE WAY AND
WHILE HER ATTITUDES HAD SHIFTED,
SHE NO LONGER BLAMES HERSELF
TODAY.
TODAY. SHE’S STILL RELUCTANT TO FRAME
THIS AS RAPE, WHICH IS SOMETHING
ELSE PEOPLE FOUND CONFUSING.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE DETAILS THAT
SHE DESCRIBES OF HER ENCOUNTER
WITH TRUMP AND THIS DRESSING
ROOM, FORCED PENETRATION WITHOUT
CONSENT, THAT IS RAPE AND THAT’S
THE MOST SERIOUS ALLEGATION OF
SEXUAL MISCONDUCT AGAINST THE
PRESIDENT TO DATE.
AND YET SHE DOES NOT -- SHE WILL
NOT CALL IT A RAPE.
SHE SAYS IT WAS A FIGHT AND I
DON’T WANT TO BE PAINTED -- I
DON’T WANT TO BE CATEGORIZED AS
A VICTIM AND DAMAGED GOODS AND
THIS IS ONE AMONG MANY STORIES I
HAVE INCLUDED IN MY BOOK.
>> I DON’T WANT TO GLOSS OVER
THIS.
THIS. I THINK WHAT YOU SAID IS SO
CENTRAL TO THIS STORY.
WHAT SHE DESCRIBES, THE ACT,
REGARDLESS OF WHAT SHE WANTS TO
CALL IT, EVERY CRIMINAL CODE
DESCRIBES WHAT HAPPENED TO HER
AS A RAPE.
SHE GIVES AN ANSWER FOR WHY SHE
DIDN’T TELL HER STORY DURING THE
CAMPAIGN.
CAMPAIGN. >> SO SHE SAYS -- THIS IS THE
QUESTION, I THINK THAT
THERE’S -- LISTEN, YOU MAY HAVE
DECIDED -- AND THESE
CONVERSATIONS, THE FIRST FRIEND
SHE CALLED SAID THIS IS A RAPE,
YOU SHOULD GO TO THE POLICE, SHE
SAID NO, I’M NOT DOING THAT AND
PLEASE, YOU DON’T TELL ANYBODY.
I HAD TO TELL ONE FRIEND.
THEN SHE TELLS ANOTHER FRIEND
WHO SAYS LISTEN, I THINK IT’S
PROBABLY BEST TO KEEP THIS
QUIET, TRUMP IS PRETTY POWERFUL.
SO SHE KEPT QUIET.
YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT.
BUT ONE OF MY FAVORITE QUESTIONS
IS WHY DIDN’T YOU SPEAK OUT
DURING THE 2016 RACE?
ALL OF THESE OTHER WOMEN WERE
COMING OUT, THE "ACCESS
HOLLYWOOD" TAPE.
HOLLYWOOD" TAPE. SHE SAID SHE FELT THE WOMEN THAT
WERE COMING OUT, THE WAY THAT
PLAYED OUT WAS ACTUALLY HELPING
DONALD TRUMP.
DONALD TRUMP. IT WAS AT LEAST AMONG SOME OF
HIS SUPPORTERS MAKING HIM LOOK
STRONG AND COMMANDING AND SHE
DIDN’T FEEL LIKE SHE WAS GOING
TO MAKE ANYTHING BETTER BY
WADING INTO THE PUBLIC DEBATE AT
THE TIME.
THE TIME. >> IT’S AN APPALLING CONCEPT BUT
THE FACT HE WON SUGGESTS SHE’S
NOT ALL WRONG IN HER ANALYSIS OF
HUMAN NATURE.
HUMAN NATURE. IT’S AN EXTRAORDINARY EPISODE OF
THE DAILY.
THE DAILY. EVERYONE SHOULD DO LISTEN TO IT.
YOU HAVE MORE REPORTING COMING
OUT.
OUT. >> I HAVE TWO COLLEAGUES,