>> Jeyan: AS THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE BECOME MORE EVIDENT, THE NEED FOR GOOD
INFORMATION, AND SOLUTIONS, IS OBVIOUS.
CHARNEL ANDERSON COVERS THE NORTHWESTERN PART OF THE PROVINCE FOR OUR ONTARIO HUBS.
SHE'S BEEN SPEAKING TO EXPERTS ABOUT WHAT INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS HAVE TO OFFER
TRADITIONAL CLIMATE SCIENCE AND HOW TO INTEGRATE THAT TO GET BETTER OUTCOMES FOR EVERYONE.
AND CHARNEL ANDERSON JOINS US NOW FROM RED ROCK ON THE NORTH SHORE OF LAKE SUPERIOR.
HELLO.
>> Charnel: HI, JEYAN.
>> Jeyan: ALL RIGHT.
LET'S START OFF WITH TALKING ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS ARE.
>> Charnel: RIGHT.
THERE'S NO UNIVERSAL DEFINITION FOR WHAT AN INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEM IS.
THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF INDIGENOUS CULTURES ACROSS THE GLOBE AND JUST AS MANY KNOWLEDGE
SYSTEMS.
BUT BROADLY SPEAKING, AS ONE OF MY SOURCES DEBORAH McGREGOR EXPLAINS, INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE
SYSTEMS ARE USED TO SUPPORT INDIGENOUS SOCIETIES, AND SO INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS
HAVE THEIR OWN EXPERTS AND THEIR OWN WAYS OF GENERATING AND CONVEYING KNOWLEDGE.
AN EXAMPLE OF THIS WOULD BE IN ANISHINAABE CULTURE, THE EXPERTS COULD BE CONSIDERED ELDERS OR
KNOWLEDGE-KEEPERS AND THEY TRANSMIT KNOWLEDGE THROUGH ORAL TRADITIONS, LIKE ORAL HISTORIES,
STORYTELLING, AS WELL AS CEREMONY.
ANOTHER BIG PART OF KNOWLEDGE TRANSMISSION IS LANGUAGE.
AS YOU KNOW, LANGUAGE AND CULTURE ARE INEXTRICABLY LINKED, RIGHT, AND LANGUAGE KIND OF
HELPS SHAPE OUR WORLD VIEW.
SO IN ORDER TO FULLY UNDERSTAND A KNOWLEDGE SYSTEM, I THINK IT HELPS TO UNDERSTAND THE
LANGUAGE, AND THAT'S JUST LIKE ANYTHING, LIKE FINANCE OR ACADEMIA OR JOURNALISM, YOU HAVE
TO KNOW THE LINGO.
SO THESE SYSTEMS ARE VARIED BUT THEY'RE ALSO LOCALIZED.
SO THERE ARE SOME COMMONALITIES IN THAT SENSE WHERE INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS ARE
PLACE-BASED AND THEY'RE KIND OF BASED ON THIS CONNECTION WITH THE LAND AND KNOWLEDGE IS
GENERATED THROUGH THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LAND.
>> Jeyan: SO WHERE DID THIS IDEA COME FROM THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE SYSTEMS COULD HELP CLIMATE
CHANGE?
>> SO I THINK IT COMES FROM THE FACT THAT INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS ARE BASED ON THIS
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LAND, AND OFTENTIMES THAT INCLUDES PRINCIPLES OF SUSTAINABILITY,
SUSTAINABLE RESOURCE USE.
AND THERE'S LOTS OF RESEARCH ON THE RESULTS OF THESE SYSTEMS.
SO, FOR EXAMPLE, A POPULAR FIGURE THAT'S FLOATING AROUND OUT AROUND THERE IS INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE MAKE UP 5% OF THE GLOBAL POPULATION BUT 80% OF GLOBAL BIODIVERSITY IS IN LANDS MANAGED
BY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.
SO IN MANY PLACES, INCLUDING CANADA, LANDS MANAGED BY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THEY CONTAIN
MORE OR JUST AS MUCH BIODIVERSITY AS PROTECTED AREAS DO.
SO DEBORAH McGREGOR, SHE TOLD ME IT'S SAFE TO SAY THAT INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS ARE
MAINTAINING ECOLOGICAL INTEGRITY.
I THINK THE QUESTION IS HOW.
>> Jeyan: I'M CURIOUS IF YOU COULD YOU GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF HOW THE HOLISTIC APPROACH TO THE
ENVIRONMENT COULD HELP SCIENTISTS.
>> SO I THINK ONE EXAMPLE, WHICH, YOU KNOW, MIGHT BE USEFUL FOR US HERE UP IN NORTHWESTERN
ONTARIO IS INDIGENOUS FIRE MANAGEMENT.
AS YOU KNOW IT'S BEEN A PRETTY BRUTAL FIRE SEASON THIS YEAR.
THERE'S NEARLY TWO TIMES AS MANY FIRES THIS YEAR COMPARED TO LAST.
AND GENERALLY THE PROVINCE'S APPROACH TO FIRE MANAGEMENT IS SUPPRESSION, RIGHT?
JUST GET THE FIRE OUT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE SO YOU LIMIT THE DAMAGE THAT'S BEING DONE.
BUT FIRE CAN ACTUALLY BE USED TO FIGHT FIRE.
SO RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT INDIGENOUS MANAGEMENT PRACTICES, SUCH AS CULTURAL BURNS, HELP TO
MITIGATE WILDFIRE.
AND THAT'S SIMILAR TO CONTROLLED BURNS OR PRESCRIBED BURNS WHICH THE MNR DOES WITH THE AIM OF
ELIMINATING FUELS, SO KIND OF BURNING UP ALL THOSE DEAD STICKS, LEAVES AND TREES IN
ORDER TO KEEP FOREST FIRES UNDER CONTROL WHEN THEY DO HAPPEN.
WHEREAS WITH CULTURAL BURNING, THE GOAL IS TO KIND OF SHAPE THE LANDSCAPE.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DOING FOREVER, AND, YOU KNOW,
KIND OF BEEN DISRUPTED BECAUSE OF COLONIALISM AND THIS INSISTENCE ON FIRE SUPPRESSION,
BUT CULTURAL BURNING HAS A PLETHORA OF BENEFITS, NOT ONLY FOR BIODIVERSITY BUT IT
ENCOURAGES THE GROWTH OF DIFFERENT FOOD SOURCES LIKE BERRIES AND MUSHROOMS WHICH THEN
ATTRACT ANIMALS.
IN ADDITION TO MITIGATING WILDFIRES, IT'S A PRACTICE THAT CAN BRING LIFE BACK INTO AN
ECOSYSTEM.
>> Jeyan: I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SORT OF HOW, YOU KNOW, THE SCIENCE COMMUNITY,
WESTERN SCIENCE, CAN WORK WITH SORT OF THE TRADITIONAL KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS.
THERE WAS THIS GREAT QUOTE IN YOUR ARTICLE, AND I WANT TO READ IT.
IT SAID: HOW DO YOU FIT A ROUND PEG INTO A SQUARE HOLE.
YOU MAKE IT SMALLER.
AND IT TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SORT OF THE REDUCTIONIST APPROACH WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
WESTERN SCIENCE.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SORT OF THE CHALLENGES IN TERMS OF INTEGRATING THE TWO?
>> Charnel: YEAH.
I MEAN, IT'S A REALLY CHALLENGING FEAT TO UNITE INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE SYSTEMS
WITH WESTERN BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN A LOT OF WAYS AND YOU KIND OF HINTED AT THAT.
INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE TENDS TO BE SUBJECTIVE AND HOLISTIC, WHEREAS WESTERN SCIENCE IS MORE
OBJECTIVE AND REDUCTIONIST IN THAT IT KIND OF ZEROS IN WITH A LASER FOCUS ON ONE THING, RIGHT?
AS WELL, WESTERN SCIENCE, YOU FIND THAT WRITTEN DOWN IN ACADEMIC JOURNALS, WHEREAS IF
YOU'RE LOOKING FOR INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE, YOU NEED TO GO FIND A KNOWLEDGE-KEEPER WHO IS GOING TO
SHARE THAT INFORMATION WITH YOU ORALLY AND THERE ARE DIFFERENT PROTOCOLS FOR THAT.
SO THERE ARE CHALLENGES IN BRINGING THESE TWO THINGS TOGETHER, NOT ONLY IN ACADEMICS
AND IN RESEARCH BUT EVEN FEDERAL POLICY, FOR EXAMPLE.
SO FEDERAL CLIMATE POLICY, THE PAN-CANADIAN FRAMEWORK AND HEALTHY PLANET, HEALTHY
ENVIRONMENT, HAVE INTENTIONS OF INCLUDING INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE, BUT THESE POLICIES HAVE BEEN
CRITICIZED FOR EXCLUDING INDIGENOUS PEOPLE FROM THE DECISION-MAKING TABLE.
SO I THINK THAT KIND OF GOES BACK TO THE QUOTE ABOUT HOW DO YOU FIT A SQUARE PEG INTO A
ROUND HOLE?
AND THE GOVERNMENT KIND OF HAS A PROPENSITY TO CONSULT WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, WHICH IS
DIFFERENT THAN, YOU KNOW, BEING AT THE DECISION-MAKING TABLE OR HAVING THE POWER TO MAKE
DECISIONS, RIGHT?
IN CONSULTATION YOU CAN ASK, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?
OKAY, GREAT, THANK YOU, AND THEN JUST COMPLETELY DISREGARD THEM.
SO THERE ARE DEFINITELY SOME ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE WORKED THROUGH IN ORDER TO UTILIZE
INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE TO ITS FULLEST EXTENT IN POLICY ISSUES, BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE
WHO ARE REALLY PASSIONATE AS RESEARCHERS WHO ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW THESE TWO THINGS
CAN WORK TOGETHER.
WHAT I'M HEARING IS THIS PROCESS REALLY NEEDS TO BE INDIGENOUS-LED.
IT GOES BACK TO WESTERN SOCIETY TRYING TO ASSIMILATE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.
SO THE FEELING IS IT NEEDS TO BE INDIGENOUS-LED, IT NEEDS TO BE DONE WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AT
THE HEART OF IT, NOT JUST INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE, RIGHT?
SO THAT BEING SAID, THERE ARE MODELS BEING DEVELOPED TO KIND OF HELP FACILITATE A
CO-EXISTENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO SYSTEMS.
ONE EXAMPLE IS TWO-EYED SEEING WHICH IS USED IN RESEARCH AND THAT ALLOWS RESEARCHERS TO KIND
OF LOOK AT A PROBLEM FROM TWO PERSPECTIVES.
IT'S CHALLENGING, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WORKING ON SOLUTIONS.
IT'S JUST GOING TO TAKE TIME TO KIND OF IRON OUT THESE BUMPS.
>> Jeyan: IT'S SOMETHING WE WILL LOOK FORWARD TO AND LOOK FORWARD TO SOME OF YOUR
REPORTING ON THAT.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHARNEL.
REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
>> Charnel: THANKS, JEYAN.