Please welcome Joey Whimple and Jennifer Marie Long.
(cheering, applause)
Welcome to the show.
-Thank you. -Thank you very much for being here.
Thank you.
Let's... let's get straight into the topic
and the day, as it happened.
Donald Trump tweeted out this message, essentially, uh,
banning, uh, transgender service members from, uh,
you know, serving in the military.
Uh, let's talk about the impact.
First and foremost, what would the possible impact be
if that were to happen right now to somebody who was serving
in the military as a transgender person?
Um, in the immediate piece, you're looking at a reduction
of force by nearly 15,000 service members
across the board...
that serve in, uh, various segments, all branches,
different skill sets.
Um, some are highly-regarded skill sets that are,
-you know, very valuable to the military. -Right.
That is an immediate reduction, uh, that you're looking at,
and a force reduction.
So-so... so, America, as a whole, loses...
uh... the military personnel who are
-They lose some top talent. -helping keep the country safe?
Absolutely.
On-on a... on a personal level, on a professional level,
what does that mean to you, as a transgender person
who was serving? Because you are now both veterans.
But as someone who is actively serving,
-what would that mean for you? -Oh, someone
who is actively serving? Well, the past administration made
-a lot of strides in order to lift this ban, -Right.
and there was a lot of promise that was set in.
And individuals felt that comfort, that safety net
-to come out in their units. -Right.
And when they're working in these strenuous environments
and such and they felt that comfort to come out
and say, "Hey, you know, I identify this way."
And now the rug, the carpet's being completely ripped out
from underneath, and it just leaves
this question of uncertainty. What's next?
There's just those three tweets.
We haven't seen any legislation, anything of the sort.
We have no idea what this means.
When you say you... the rug has been pulled out,
what does that mean, specifically?
Well, you know, you think of serv... the service members,
you know, those that are serving actively.
Many of 'em had come out, you know,
based on the last administration allowing open service.
So then they were kind of lured into the open.
And now, at the same time, you know,
now as they're in the open, now their careers are in danger.
Some... You know, most of them are career soldiers.
Those are the ones that, you know, made a career...
(stammers) serving in the military,
serv... you know, serving worldwide and globally
with those demands, and now that's in jeopardy.
Many have families. This impacts their families as well.
So now you're looking at, you know, getting, literally, fired
from the military, being unemployed,
and the main change to your family.
How devastating would that be to any individual
who showed up to work and somebody finds out
that their whole department's gonna be closed
or they're gonna be... their job is in jeopardy?
Now, it's not just fired. When it's the military,
th-there is also the-the issue of how you are discharged.
-Mm-hmm. -That's an important issue.
Is that something that would concern
-an active service member? -Absolutely. -Yes, absolutely.
Because that discharge code is everything.
It's education benefits, it's health benefits,
it's the lead into a new job.
They could never work in the federal government again
with a dishonorable discharge or anything underneath honorable.
So it leaves that uncertainty for them completely.
If-if we look at, uh,
part of what the-the president was tweeting about,
uh, many of those ideas have been, you know,
-shot out there by-by multiple different people. -Mm-hmm.
People go, like, "Why should we pay?
"Why should America's military have to pay
"for you to have your gender reassignment surgery?
Why should America have to pay for you to figure it out?"
As somebody who served for a very long time,
how would you respond to them
and what do you think people need to understand
about serving in the military as a transgender person?
Well, you know, again,
back to many of us who are career soldiers, you know,
the military made a bigger investment in me training me
to do various skills, to bring... raise my skill sets up,
-to raise my-my service up. -Uh-huh.
And they were valuable skill sets. So they would spend,
if there was any other medical procedure that was necessary
for my own health and safety, the military would provide it.
-Full care. No matter what it may be. -Right.
So, and, in this case, you know, they were,
you know, providing that care. I was able to...
I served on active duty. I was deployed overseas in Afghanistan
while I was on a hormone therapy
and in the middle of my transition,
and I was very successful in accomplishing my mission
to the... you know, to the fullest extent.
When-when people bring up the second part of the argument,
which is you cannot serve
because you are experiencing hormone therapy
or you cannot serve because you are transitioning,
I-I saw people today saying things like,
"You don't want someone who is distracted
and delusional on the battlefield."
Talk to us about that experience.
What is that like, serving and transitioning?
I mean, it would be nice to know what it was like for you in that
and it would be nice to know why you decided to transition
-once you had left the military. -Mm-hmm.
I began my transition in 2009,
uh, right after my la... my last tour in, um, Iraq.
And I just made the... the decision
to physically transition. Um, and it's a long process.
There's therapy that goes in there. Then it's...
you b... you begin the hormone regime. And I began that.
And that still takes a long time.
It still takes months and months and months.
There's no distinct, one-day grand change.
-Right. -It's a gradual change over a period of months
that act... that your body begins
-to physically make changes. -And does it... does it affect
your ability to perform as-as a soldier?
Uh, no. Uh, case in fact was, again,
I'll refer back to Afghanistan.
Um, I was that... My job was the... probably the most, um,
distinct job I had in the military after 30 years--
it was that of a combat advisor.
I was assigned to the French Army as an advisor,
to train, advise, and assist the development
of the Afghan police force
in the northern pro-providence of Kapisa.
Um, with that job, I was, you know...
it was the most, uh, dynamic job I had in my career to date.
-Right. -And I was able to do that job with great distinction.
I received, um, the Bronze Star,
um, the French National Defence Medal.
I was the first soldier to receive that medal
-from the French since World War II. -Wow.
-So, you know, when you say... -(cheering and applause)
Thank you.
(applause continues)
So in respect to saying, are we capable, that's not... that's...
You know, that's not necessarily true.
There are so... uh, many, many servicemen out there today
and servicewomen who are serving with distinction.
There's company commanders, there's airline pil...
There's-there's, uh, Air Force pilots.
They're in all walks of life and jobs.
If someone says, though, "Yes, but you may not be
"as strong as you once were, you may not be able to fight
as tenaciously as you once did because of this,"
someone says, "How can you be in the military
if you're not that super soldier?,"
what does that mean for you as a transgender person?
Specifically, I would feel like somebody was judging me
on my gender identity rather than what my character
or my skill set can bring to a role.
I performed incredibly in my role.
I was an HR supervisor for a combat support hospital,
and I was in charge of everything.
And I was also a full honors funeral pallbearer.
There was absolutely no strain on my position
because of my gender identity.
I didn't physically transition in the military
-because I was so afraid of the negative repercussions. -Uh-huh.
When I was serving, it was considered a mental disorder
to be... identify as transgender.
And I saw people being chaptered out
and dishonorably discharged from my unit left and right
-for various different reasons. -NOAH: Right.
So I held in my true self, and I was miserable,
absolutely miserable,
but I socially transitioned outside of work.
I went by a male name,
and I started introducing myself as a boy away from work.
And it ate me up inside
that I had to live this lie when I was working,
but that didn't affect my job.
It's interesting that you bring up jobs like pallbearer
-and working in HR. -Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I'm know I'm not the only person who thinks
-military is only gun, bang, bang, boom, grenade. -Mm-hmm.
-Right? But... -I did that work.
-You did that work, as well? -Yeah. I... My...
-But there are many other jobs that don't involve... -No.
...actually going out in combat, but still supporting.
They say the ratio in the forces...
For-for every, you know, line combatant,
there's about seven to 15 soldiers
uh, that are in support of that combatant.
So, you know, the ratio-- it takes more support
to support somebody that's actually on the front line
than, you know, than the actual numbers of soldiers
on the front line themselves, 'cause we need so much support
-to operate globally. -NOAH: Uh-huh.
We do so... you know, when we operate, we actually set up...
When we set up a base, we operate in that base
like a separate city.
You know, all the infrastructure is there for... for everything.
When-when we look at what the president said
with regards to disruption, again, message that's echoed,
you know, through multiple places.
You hear people saying, "This is disruptive to the military.
"The fact that you are transgender is causing us
"to have this discussion, and now people are not focusing
on fighting, and you are causing a problem."
Do you feel that you are causing a problem?
Do you feel that you being transgender
is disrupting what's happening?
-Absolutely not. No. -Mm.
I feel as if it is, more or less, something's that new,
and individuals are afraid of change,
such as those that are in charge of our country.
Therefore, if a car is breaking down,
and there's a problem with the engine,
you don't scrap the entire car.
You work on it piece by piece to bring it up.
I feel as if this is just a tiny piece of the military
that people are afraid of, because it's uncharted waters.
-NOAH: Mm-hmm. -And more or less.
And I feel as if this is just more...
something that can be worked with.
NOAH: But did you... did you experience...?
I mean, as someone who was in command,
did you experience people reacting differently to you?
Did you notice, you know,
your soldiers maybe not being as focused as they would have been
because of what you were... you were experiencing?
Uh, most of it had occurred in my career at the very end...
Um, in the end, I wasn't allowed to serve openly.
Um, the very few... last weeks of my career,
um, word got out that I was transgender,
and that, um, I was, in fact, living a dou...
-you know, another life. -Right.
The command called me up and asked me to retire.
Quietly.
So, my career ended, you know, with a...
you know, with a phone call asking to retire.
And I was retired not with great fanfare,
not with, you know, the pomp and circumstances
that comes to someone, you know, of a senior enlisted.
You know, I was a sergeant major.
That's, you know, the highest of enlisted ranks.
I advised senior officers on the, you know, on operations.
-NOAH: Right. -I do... You know, I handled troop...
you know, troop welfare.
You know, these are the... you know, most...
you know, most trusted jobs in the military.
You know, and I was doing it up until that moment,
until, you know, they found out.
And interestingly enough, after so much time,
many of 'em, you know, now understand,
and they-they get it, and they're-they're...
I'm friends with them, and I talk to them, and they...
We've had conversations on it.
And, you know, as far as the,
you know, the readiness is concerned, it's...
You know, it's more of a misnomer.
First of all, statistically,
we're not a large volume of solders.
It's not like we're talking about half the U.S. Army.
-NOAH: Uh-huh. -You know, there was a bigger factor
when we talked about, you know,
in the time of "don't ask, don't tell."
-Right. -Everybody had the same fears. The same fears existed.
And in those same fears was, how is it gonna impact readiness?
Same conversations we had.
And the military went to great lengths
in briefing soldiers
and doing studies
and figuring out how it was gonna work.
And in the... And I gave those briefings
to my soldiers and to the battalion.
I gave those briefings on open service...
myself.
And it was interesting because the command wondered
how many were gonna come out, or what was it gonna be like
in the force. How are we gonna handle it?
And when it was all said and done,
in the day they actually changed, you know what happened?
Nothing. Nothing changed.
Force was still the same.
Everybody still served the way they did.
So it impacted readiness.
And we already have open service,
so there are service members now--
15,000 service members right now--
serving on active duty openly.
So if there's no disruption there,
and there's not the gen...
you know, like, General Mattis isn't saying
we have a problem with force and readiness,
then it's not an issue.
Right now, the only reason it's not comp... hasn't completed
was the military was still completing the study
on new service members entering the service
on exactly what the protocols were gonna be.
But the fact of open service was there.
And I even bring it to, you know,
the fact of look at other nations.
There are about 14 other nations
-that have transgender folks serving openly. -NOAH: Right.
Two of our largest, um, partners.
You got, um, Britain and Australia.
I mean, you have multiple nations
that have service members...
Isr... the Israeli forces have it.
And they serve with distinction without issue.
So how... When you look at other armies,
we're not any... we're not approaching something new.
This is something that's, you know, that has been proven,
and we still show our-our ability to serve.
When you read the reports today...
I mean, it was reported that Donald Trump, um,
he reportedly wanted this money
to be removed from the military budget
so that he could allocate it
to the building of his wall.
If you had the opportunity
to reach the president
or send a message to him
or maybe even the people who work with him,
what would you say is one thing you wish he would understand
about transgender people serving in the military?
Well, the... the one piece that's, you know...
Again, you're looking at the cost.
Well, you-you've showed the graph
on how small the cost really is.
It's fractional at best.
A small fraction of the military budget,
so it's not like you're gonna buy a lot of bricks
for a wall with that.
-(laughter and applause) -You know.
I think the wall would be about three bricks high
and about six feet long
at the cost of construction today.
So, you know, you're not getting a lot...
you know, it's not a big diversion o-of funding.
-NOAH: Right. -You know, again, it's a distraction,
and I think it-it's placed into the media
at this very moment because again, you said
when the generals were advised, they had no comment.
They didn't even know it was coming out.
So how can the generals be an advisor?
How can he have taken counsel
from the generals in this aspect?
So, they're not aware of it.
And knowing the type of general that General Mattis is,
if it was an issue, that man would speak his mind.
-Yeah, we know that about him. Yeah. -So... Yeah.
So I think he would have come out forth and said that.
So, if the generals
aren't having necessarily a big issue with that,
they're worried about bigger issues
in funding in force management, deployment overseas,
trying to find a new strategy that works in Afghanistan.
Now the reentry of going back into Iraq a second time,
taking M-Mosul again, Raqqa and other more important areas,
how to fight that battle and be, you know, strategically
and have the Iraqi forces be able to withstand.
And at the same time, we're then looking
to a third-third theater coming in to Syria.
I mean, these are some serious considerations right now.
We're saying bringing it down to the level of worrying
about force readiness on a transgender soldier
is way off-target.
That's not... That's not an issue at all
when you're thinking of some of the bigger things
that we have on-on our plate right now
as far as global security.
(applause)
Thanks so much for joining us on the show.
I appreciate your time.
I appreciate you sharing.
Joey Whimple and Jennifer Marie Long, everybody.