- [Presenter] In downtown Phoenix
in the studios of Arizona PBS,
a plexiglass barrier wasn't the only thing separating
Republican Senator Martha McSally and Democrat Mark Kelly.
(instrumental music)
The two put their differences on display Tuesday night
on a variety of issues facing the nation,
starting with the President's handling of the pandemic.
- Mark, do you agree with the President's decision
to ban travel from China?
- Yes, but Senator you would understand this as a pilot
you guys did step one of the emergency procedure
and then you didn't do anything else.
- [Presenter] They clashed over when to confirm
the next Supreme court justice.
- Let's be clear. The constitution says
that the president gets to nominate
and the Senate gets to confirm
and all 19 times in history,
when the party has been the same,
they have moved forward with that.
- [Presenter] Kelly meanwhile, criticized
McSally's record on healthcare
- And Senator McSally has worked incredibly hard
over the last five years
to eliminate or undermine
protections for preexisting conditions.
- [Presenter] The former fighter pilot
also went on the attack
accusing Kelly of being too soft on China
and coining him a new nickname.
- It's just another example of "counterfeit Kelly".
- [Presenter] She ended up on the defense
when pressed about her support
for the President,
or if she did enough to stand up for the late John McCain
whose seat she was appointed to fill.
- I have publicly and privately repeatedly
talked to President Trump
and asked him to stop attacking John McCain.
Quite frankly, it pisses me off when he does it.
- [Presenter] Later in the debate,
the candidates offered contrasting views
on border security, climate change and police reform.
- When police officers are found
that there was serious wrongdoing,
there should be an accountability aspect to that
- He said he support allowing criminals
to sue police officers simply for doing their job.
- [Presenter] While McSally characterized Kelly
as too far left,
the retired astronauts tried to cast himself
more toward the center.
- Partisan politics has made this crisis worse
and partisan politics and partisan politicians
are not gonna get us out of it.
- [Presenter] What certain are the polls
that have him ahead of the incumbent
who used her closing remarks
to challenge Kelly to another debate.
- Let's do three more of these around Arizona
'cause Arizonans is really deserved
to have this conversation candidate to candidate.
- [Presenter] But the clock is already ticking
with early voters who will make their choice
ahead of November 3rd
about who should represent Arizona
during an unprecedented moment in our country's history.
- I was among the moderators at the Senate debate this week,
along with KJZZ Steve Goldstein
and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez from the Arizona Republic.
My thanks to both of you for being here.
Let's get right to it.
We've had some time to reflect.
Steve what do you say the headline is now?
- Well, I think the headline has a lot to do with
two things, one is
I would go with the Yvonne's line of questioning
about preexisting conditions because that has been
such the flavor of the month as far as ads going.
Can we trust Martha McSally?
Can we trust her to protect us when it comes to healthcare?
And number two was Senator McSally's continued use
of "counterfeit Kelly".
When we talked last night after the debate,
we talked about how it seemed a little bit "Trumpian",
that maybe it was a little bit out of character for her
trying something different there
and you have the joke is how many times did she say it
and at what point, even if it's effective for a little bit,
at what point does it diminishing returns?
And it seemed like we got there pretty quickly.
- Steve are we gonna hear "counterfeit Kelly" here
in the next three weeks
as we inch closer toward November 3rd?
- I think it has to be, Lorraine, only the base on that one,
because I think the impression we got from independence
and obviously we're going to some extent by social media,
emails we've all received but
it sure seemed like unless you were definitely
in the McSally camp, that got old very fast
and it also seemed frankly disrespectful in a debate that
I would think all three of us were somewhat encouraged
at least there was some discussion of issues,
that's the one part where it seemed like
it just sort of went off track.
I don't think that gained a whole lot of attraction.
Certainly not. I don't think we'll be seeing that in an ad,
let's put it that way.
- How is this one going to be remembered?
Because many of us are still talking about 2018 when we saw
Martha McSally with Krysten Sinema.
Where will this one go down in the history books?
- Look, I think both sides came to do exactly
what they wanted to do.
Martha McSally was extremely aggressive out the gate
but not so aggressive as she was in 2018
that overshadowed her more substantive policy issues.
Mark Kelly wanted to go in,
come out, not go viral, slow and steady,
be consistent on the issues,
be disciplined on the issues and not give
independence and moderate Republicans
whose support he needs to pick up,
a reason to vote against him.
I don't know, as Steve said, that this did much to
persuade any sort of independent undecided voters,
but I think feel very good about
their performances last night.
I think that
each side walks away thinking that they won the debate
- Ted Simon's of course pressed Senator McSally
so many times about her support for President Trump
but as you mentioned 2018,
that was one of the things we all observed was
how closely aligned does she wanna be with the President?
If she had run in 2016,
maybe it would have been good for her,
but as we're getting further and further from
the president's electoral win at 2016,
this is a real tough one
and she seemed to really try
to thread the needle as much as possible
with supportive his policies without supportive the man,
so that really stood out to me.
- Did this debate, I mean the polls will come out,
there's already been one,
but did this tighten the race at all?
- There are so few undecided folks out there
and if we know about independence
yes, there are so many
party-not designated in Arizona no question but
in many cases these are folks who are
unhappy with the Democrats
or unhappy with the Republicans
and maybe because they want
the Democratic party to be more left,
or the Republican party to be more right.
There's a mishmash of that.
If let's say, for being generous,
5-7%, maybe people are really undecided,
I think Yvonne made a great point in that
both candidates went in
and did what they were tasked with doing.
Whether voters think they did it well or not is the question
but it seemed that they followed their strategy.
- You know, expect to see clips from the debate night
rolled out in a way that really tries to
connect with independent voters, pretty non-partisan people.
People who want their kids to go back to school.
People who wanna make sure that their parents
and their children are healthy.
People who wanna keep their jobs.
How did those people react to that sort of messaging?
And we don't live in a city that has seen
a lot of protests in the streets right now
over racial and social injustice,
we don't see the same sort of
activities that are roiling other cities
and so I'm not sure how effective
that sort of play is going to be
when you're talking about reaching these crucial voters
in the suburbs of Metro Phoenix
that are just really concerned
about the kitchen table issues.
- Alright because we were there
and only a few select people will know this
but immediately after the debate,
when the candidates left the stays,
there was a lot of hooting and hollering.
Both sides think they won this
and we're not gonna ask who you think won but
where does this take their campaigns here
in the next few weeks?
Yvonne?
- So if I had to say who won,
I really would say that the audience won, I say voters won.
I think that that was a substantive debate.
I thought that for 90 minutes
the audience really got to see these guys interact
on a level that they had never seen before.
We learned some new things about each of them
and I think just as a journalist and as someone who cares
about the process and the institutions of
media organizations like ours and our role in this process,
I think that we did a very big service to voters
and I hope that if they didn't get a chance to watch
that they will get to.
I don't think we can say beyond that who won
the debate in terms of the candidates,
but I do think that the fundamentals of this race
remain the same.
- Now we all wanted more debates.
At the very end, Martha McSally use her closing statement
to put Mark Kelly on the spot and he dodged it.
Will we see another one?
Is there some false hope
that we could have here in the next few weeks?
- Don't count on it.
If they wanted more debates,
they would have agreed to more debates
and Mark Kelly's campaign has not agreed to more debates
and he is running from the same playbook that Kyrsten Sinema
ran from in 2018.
She agreed to debate Martha McSally one time,
she then showed up in person, pre COVID obviously,
to do a candidate forum on Spanish-language TV
and that is the exact same strategy
that we are seeing Mark implement this year.
- Alright, real quick if we have time for it.
We have two very accomplished candidates.
They're combat veterans, one of them's been to space,
the other one is the first woman to fly in combat,
how closely can the average Arizonan
connect to these two
- Lorraine, this is a fascinating dynamic to me because
it begs that question of what's the old adage
about who would you wanna have a beer with?
And it's funny 'cause there's that dynamic of,
especially when it comes to the Senate
and I would even think the President,
that people want to have someone they can relate to
and if I make great points about these are two
obviously members of the community in Southern Arizona,
but do we also want someone who
is better than we are, to put it in sort of a strange sense?
These are people who are making huge decisions
for the country. We hope they're making them thoughtfully
and putting everything they have into them.
So that's where the sort of that,
if we're looking at the weighing the scales,
yes, we want people we think are are great human beings
and are just like us
but we also want them to be a little bit better.
So that's where their relation question for me comes in.
Like the expectations are,
"Yeah, you're just like me but gosh,
you were an astronaut or you were a fighter pilot
and that was amazing. You're the first female to do that."
So I'm trying to weigh the scales on this one.
I think they're both important,
but we also sort of want to
have people who can achieve something maybe we can't
as individuals.
- Right.
Okay and it takes a special person
and a wealthy and connected person
to run for the US Senate.
That's been obvious.
- Yeah so you're not running anytime soon then I guess.
(laughing)
- Alright, we'll leave you there waiting
and wondering about that.
My thanks to both of you
in moderating the debate and of course, for this analysis.
Steve Goldstein from KJZZ Radio in Phoenix
and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez from the Arizona Republic,
my thanks to you for your work as well.
- Thanks so much.
- Nice to see you Lorraine, bye