THAT COULD HEAR EVIDENCE AND
WEIGH POSSIBLE CRIMINAL CHARGES
AGAINST MR. TRUMP, HIS STAFF OR
HIS FAMILY.
I WANT TO BRING IN MY COLLEAGUE
TO THE WHITE HOUSE, NBCS CHIEF
WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT
KRISTEN WELKER, DAVID FARRENHOLT
COVERS TRUMP FOR "THE WASHINGTON
POST" AND THE ONE WHO BROKE THIS
STARE, LEGAL AFFAIRS COLUMNIST
FOR POLITICO AND JOYCE VANCE IS
FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY AND
PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
ALABAMA SCHOOL OF LAW.
DARED, LET ME START WITH YOU
BECAUSE ITS YOUR REPORTING
HERE.
IT WASNT UNEXPECTED, BUT ITS
CERTAINLY SIGNIFICANT.
TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY
THIS MEANS, THIS EMPANELING OF A
SPECIAL GRAND JURY?
>> WELL, IT MEANS AS YOU SAID
EARLIER, THAT THE D.A. IS
SHIFTING THE FOCUS OF THE
INVESTIGATION FROM GATHERING
EVIDENCE, VACUUMING UP EVIDENCE
OF DONALD TRUMP TO PUT IT
TOGETHER AND MAKE A CASE THAT
ONE PERSON OR SET OF PERSONS
COMMITTED A CRIME.
ITS NOT GOING TO BE A QUICK
PROCESS AND THATS THE NEXT
STEP.
OVER THE NEXT SIX MONTHS THE
D.A. WILL GO TO THE GRAND JURY
AND SHOW THEM MORE EVIDENCE,
PROBABLY MORE EVIDENCE THAN A
REGULAR JURY WOULD SEE, THAT
SOMEBODY OR MAYBE MORE THAN ONE
SOMEBODY COMMITTED A CRIME.
>> KRISTEN, WEVE HEARD A LOT
FROM THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND
NOT AS MUCH SINCE HE LEFT
OFFICE, BUT HE HAS LASHED OUT ON
FEDERAL PROSECUTORS ON NUMEROUS
OCCASIONS AND VERY RARELY THAN
EVER AND GOING AFTER THE
SUBSTANCE OF THE ACCUSATIONS
AGAINST HIM.
>> THATS RIGHT, PETER.
WE ARE HEARING FROM FORMER
PRESIDENT BIDEN WHAT WE HEARD
FROM HIM SO MANY TIMES BEFORE
WHEN HES BEEN UNDER
INVESTIGATION AND NEVER BEEN
CHARGED WITH ANYTHING AND HE IS
DISMISSING THIS AS A
CONTINUATION OF THE GREATEST
WITCH HUNT IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
HES ALSO TRYING TO ARGUE THIS
THIS IS PURELY POLITICS.
LET ME READ YOU A PART OF HIS
DEFIANT STATEMENT THAT HE
RELEASED OVERNIGHT.
HE SAYS THIS IS PURELY POLITICAL
AND AN AFFRONT TO THE OVER 75
MILLION VOTERS WHO SUPPORTED ME
IN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND
IS BEING DRIVEN BY HIGHLY
PARTISAN DEMOCRAT PROSECUTORS.
PETER, THAT LAST PART OF THE
SENTENCE IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE I
AM TOLD IN CONVERSATIONS WITH
THOSE WHO ARE CLOSE TO THE
FORMER PRESIDENT THAT THAT IS
GOING TO BE EXHIBIT A.
HES TRYING TO CAST THE
PROSECUTORS AS POLITICALLY
DRIVEN SHOULD THIS SITUATION,
AND SHOULD THIS INVESTIGATION
ESCALATE, BUT TAKING A STEP
BACK, THIS IS A GROWING
POLITICAL PROBLEM FOR THE FORMER
PRESIDENT.
HE WANTS TO RE-ENGAGE.
WE KNOW HE WANTS TO BE OUT ON
THE TRAIL CAMPAIGNING FOR
CANDIDATES IN THE MIDTERM AND
THIS WILL UNDOUBTEDLY CAST A
SHADOW NOT ONLY THE FORMER
PRESIDENT, BUT OVER THE GOP AS
THEY TRY TO NAVIGATE HOW TO MOVE
FORWARD IN THE POST-TRUMP ERA.
SO THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN
WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
ABOUT THIS LATEST LEGAL
DEVELOPMENT WITHIN TRUMP WORLD,
PETER.
>> JOYCE, LET ME ASK YOU IF I
CAN RIGHT NOW, THE EMPANELING OF
A GRAND JURY DOESNT MEAN THAT
ANY PARTICULAR PERSON WILL BE
CHARGED, BUT WE CERTAINLY KNOW
THAT THERE IS A LOT THAT THEYVE
BEEN FOCUSED ON IN TERMS OF THE
SCOPE OF THIS INVESTIGATION IN
AND AROUND MR. TRUMPS WORLD.
HERES WHAT WE HEARD FROM HIS
FORMER FIXER AND HIS FORMER
ATTORNEY MICHAEL COHEN JUST A
COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.
LISTEN.
>> TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DID THE
PRESIDENT OR HIS COMPANY EVER
INFLATE ASSETS OR REVENUES?
>> YES.
>> AND WAS THAT DONE WITH THE
PRESIDENTS KNOWLEDGE OR
DIRECTION?
>> EVERYTHING WAS DONE WITH THE
KNOWLEDGE AND AT THE DIRECTION
OF MR. TRUMP.
>> DO YOU THINK WE NEED TO
REVIEW HIS FINANCIAL STATEMENTS
AND HIS TAX RETURNS IN ORDER TO
COMPARE THEM.
>> YES, AND YOUD FIND IT AT THE
TRUMP ORG.
>> JOYCE, OBVIOUSLY, WITH THIS
INVESTIGATION STEMMING IN LARGE
PART FROM THAT TESTIMONY AS IT
RELATES TO TAX AND FINANCIAL
BANK-TYPE FRAUD, WHAT DO WE
KNOW, SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE
SCOPE OF THIS INVESTIGATION?
WELL, I THINK YOURE RIGHT,
PETER.
THAT TESTIMONY FROM MICHAEL
COHEN WAS LIKELY THE ORIGIN
STORY FOR THIS INVESTIGATION,
AND THAT IMPLIES THAT
PROSECUTORS HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT
BOTH THE POSSIBILITY OF TAX
FRAUD AND BANK FRAUD AND PERHAPS
THEYRE LOOKING AT COMPENSATION
SCHEMES FOR EXECUTIVES OF THE
TRUMP ORGANIZATION, BUT
SOMETHING THATS IMPORTANT TO
REMEMBER IS THAT CY VANCE HAS
USED IT EFFECTIVELY IN THE PAST.
IN FEBRUARY AFTER A HARD-FOUGHT
BATTLE HE FINALLY GOT ACCESS TO
TRUMP ORGANIZATIONS TAXES AND
TO THE UNDERLYING DOCUMENTATION
FOR THOSE TAX RETURNS.
HES NOW HAD SEVERAL MONTHS TO
SCRUTINIZE THOSE MATERIALS.
HES BROUGHT IN SOME FORENSIC
ACCOUNTING EXPERTS AND SO
CONVENING A SPECIAL GRAND JURY
THAT CAN FOCUS THREE DAYS A WEEK
ON MATTERS RELATING TO THE TRUMP
ORGANIZATION AND PERHAPS
INDIVIDUAL DEFENDANTS WOULD
SIGNIFY HES HIT PAY DIRT HERE.
YOU DONT BRING A SPECIAL GRAND
JURY AND NOT FOR NOTHING TO
WASTE EVERYONES TIME.
THIS IS NOW A MORE FOCUSED
INVESTIGATION, BUT WE DONT YET
KNOW WHAT ITS GOAL IS.
>> SO RENATA, HOW TOUGH IS IT TO
PROVE TAX FRAUD HERE?
HERES SOMETHING YOU TWEETED
THAT I FOUND INTERESTING.
YOU WROTE FRAUD IS JUST WHEN YOU
LIE TO PEOPLE TO GET THEIR MONEY
SO THE CASE USUALLY COMES DOWN
TO WHETHER THE DEFENDANT KNEW
THE STATEMENTS IN THE DOCUMENTS
WERE FALSE.
YOU SAY ITS EASIER TO PROVE
KNOWLEDGE FOR PEOPLE INVOLVED IN
PREPARING OR AUTHORIZING THE
DOCUMENTS LIKE WEISSELBERG.
OBVIOUSLY THERE REFERENCING TO
THE CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICER FOR
THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION.
SO STATE OF MIND, ULTIMATELY AT
THE END OF THE DAY WOULD COME
INTO PLAY HERE.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
THATS WHAT A FRAUD CASE USUALLY
COMES DOWN TO.
ULTIMATELY, LOOK, THERE ARE
FALSE STATEMENTS IN ALL SORTS OF
DOCUMENTS.
SOMETIMES WE MAKE MISTAKES AND
THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT WHAT TURNS
A FALSE STATEMENT AND A DOCUMENT
INTO A FRAUD CASE IS HAVING THE
KNOWLEDGE THAT THE STATEMENTS
FALSE AND INTENDING TO DEFRAUD
PEOPLE, AND SO THAT COULD BE
TRICKY.
WE DONT HAVE A TELESCOPE THAT
SEES INSIDE PEOPLES MIND.
SO TYPICALLY THE SORT OF
EVIDENCE IS REQUIRED TO PROVE
THE KNOWLEDGE AND THE INTENT TO
DEFRAUD IS EITHER GOING TO BE
SOME REALLY SALTY EMAIL OR TEXT
MESSAGE SAYING, YES -- THE
NUMBERS OR TESTIMONY FROM
SOMEBODY WHO WILL SAY YES,
DONALD TRUMP AND I DISCUSSED
THIS TAX RETURN AND HE TOLD ME
TO INFLATE THE NUMBERS AND
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
OBVIOUSLY, ITS HYPOTHETICAL AND
THATS THE SORT OF HYPOTHETICAL
EVIDENCE YOU NEED.
>> A LOT OF AMERICANS RIGHT NOW
ARE TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF ALL
YOUVE BEEN READING ABOUT THE
FORMER PRESIDENT AND THE
INVESTIGATIONS.
YOU HAVE THE MANHATTAN DISTRICT
ATTORNEY.
YOU HAVE THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY
GENERAL, LETITIA JAMES AND SHES
SHARING SOME OF HER LAWYERS WITH
THE MANHATTAN D.A. RIGHT NOW.
CAN YOU HELP US UNDERSTAND THE
STATE OF PLAY?
>> SURE, IT IS COMPLICATED AND
THERE ARE TWO SEPARATE
INVESTIGATIONS.
THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL
HAD BEEN RUNNING A CIVIL
INVESTIGATION, AN INVESTIGATION
THAT WOULD END WITH A LAWSUIT
AND SHE HAS TOLD US A LITTLE BIT
ABOUT WHAT SHES INTERESTED IN
AND SHES INTERESTED IN FIVE OR
SIX DIFFERENT TRANSACTIONS WHERE
TRUMP MISSTATED HIS ASSETS TO
LOWER HIS TAXES OR TO CONVINCE A
LENDER HES A BETTER CREDIT
RISK.
SHE HASNT GIVEN US THE EVIDENCE
SHE HAS, BUT THATS WHAT SHES
FOCUSED ON.
THE CY VANCE CRIMINAL INQUIRY
WHOSE SCOPE IS MUCH LARGER AND
ITS TRUMPS FINANCES GOING TO
2011 AND WE DONT KNOW WHAT HE
SEIZED ON.
>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT CY
VANCE, THE MANHATTAN D.A.
OBVIOUSLY, HIS TERM EXPIRES AT
THE END OF THIS YEAR.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT IN
TERMS OF THE TIMEFRAME THAT
WERE PLAYING HERE FOR THE
POSSIBILITY OF THE CHARGES?
>> YOU KNOW, I KNOW A LOT OF
FOLKS HAVE SPECULATED THAT CY
VABS WOULD LOVE TO SEE THIS CASE
COME TO FRUITION BEFORE HE
LEAVES OFFICE.
I THINK PROSECUTORS ARE LIKE
EARN
EVERYBODY ELSE.
WE LIKE TO SEE OUR WORK BE
PRODUCTIVE AND LIKELY THE TIMING
OF THIS SPECIAL GRAND JURY WHICH
WILL TERMINATE IN NOVEMBER WOULD
INDICATE THAT THERE IS SOME HOPE
THAT INDICTMENTS OR A DECISION
NOT TO INDICT COULD BE REACHED
BY THEN AND OF COURSE, THE
SPECIAL GRAND JURY CAN BE
EXTENDED FOR AN ADDITIONAL
PERIOD OF TIME.
THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO
GUARANTEES HERE THAT THIS WORK
IS FINISHED IN NOVEMBER.
>> AND RENATO BACK TO WHERE WE
STARTED ABOUT THIS SPECIAL GRAND
JURY.
THEY CAN HELP OBTAIN RECORDS AND
FOLLOW THROUGH WITH THE
RETURNING OF INDICTMENTS AND
THEY CAN LOCK IN TESTIMONY.
IS IT LIKELY OR POSSIBLE THAT
THIS GRAND JURY WOULD BE USED TO
LOCK IN THE TESTIMONY OF SOME OF
THOSE WHO MAY BE KEY TO THE
INVESTIGATION ITSELF?
>> YEAH.
ABSOLUTELY.
ANYONE WHO LEMBERS
REPORTS OF WITNESSES COMING IN
AND OUT OF THAT GRAND JURY.
I THINK WE WILL SEE MORE REPORTS
IN THE WEEKS AHEAD OF SIMILAR
THINGS HAPPENING HERE AND AS YOU
POINT OUT, THIS IS ABOUT LOCKING
IN TESTIMONY IN OTHER WORDS, AS
OPPOSED TO HAVING A CONVERSATION
WITH SOMEONE THEYLL HAVE TO
RAISE THEIR HAND AND TESTIFY