foreign
Paradigm forces the Muslim to adopt its
own language saying that something is
morally wrong from the Islamic lens is
morally wrong under a secular Paradigm
right it becomes really tricky territory
to kind of navigate we have to ask
ourselves and what kind of impact is
this having on the way that you and I as
Muslims conceptualize our faith assalamu
alaikum and welcome back to Dogma
disrupted today we're having another
discussion on secularism whereas before
we talked about the history of
secularism and debunked some of the
myths about secularism today we're going
to be looking at where it leaves us as
Muslims today in the west what are the
pressures that we feel under the secular
order how does it affect the way that we
relate to our faith and to Islam and to
break down this discussion we've brought
a very special guest with us today uh
sister Dania hanini welcome very much to
the program thank you for having me it's
a pleasure to be here
so we talked just to give a very very
brief summary you know secularism sort
of positions or postures as this clean
separation between church and state
between religion and society when in
reality it's anything but it's not a
separation it's rather a force that
produces a new type of religion and a
new type of society and has a bunch of
different sort of values and preferences
that come along with it one of the sort
of avenues of power that it exercises on
all religions is a power that privatizes
religion so I was hoping that you could
start us off by talking about what is
the privatization of Faith look like in
general and for us as Muslims yeah about
gloves
um I think this is a wonderful place to
start our conversation because I think
as the conversation rolls out much of
the blowback that we see in the way that
we as Muslims conceptualize in practice
are then under a secular Paradigm is
because of this one of the reasons
because of the stipulation of the
private station of Faith itself so what
is privatization kind of rest on there
are a couple of assumptions the first
being
that under secularism
um the the the reality of stripping
religion from the public sphere requires
that religion itself is to be defined
um and and or reconfigured rather
um by that by that new kind of
stipulation and what I mean by this is
in order for religion to be separated
from the public domain
um it needs an active kind of um it
needs to go through that active process
of being redefined to fit neatly in that
public sphere and um you know in this
case it's at the state's dispense as to
what is acceptable religious practice
and what is unacceptable religious
practice
so in the case of of you and I's Muslims
That should kind of set off some red
flags right
um does this or are the implications now
that Islam is only to be privatized only
to be something very specific and unique
to the individual experience
um and in the process of doing so uh is
Islam stripped of its Universal vision
and and and application
um and so generally speaking when we
talk about privatizing faith what that
necessitates is that you know all faiths
kind of hold the same epistemic weight
right and in the process of doing so you
have feeling
um Trump dogma and Trump principle
because again it is something that's
supposed to be deeply personal
um um to the individual so what you're
saying is that in the secular order
there's no evaluative framework or
evaluative language to arbitrate between
different sort of rival uh moralities if
a Christian is saying then we should
turn the other cheek in the situation
and a Muslim is saying no rather whether
it's uh tooth for a tooth then we don't
have any language to even come to a
conclusion as to which would be a more
appropriate or which would be a better
course of action
is that fair absolutely absolutely what
the secular model does is it
um it robs this idea of Truth with a
capital T right and that's kind of the
the
um trademark of like a post-modern world
that we live in right and how this kind
of um or what this does is it actually
just creates a buffet of choices for the
individual consumer to choose and select
what they're kind of
um what their flavor of spirituality
slash religion looks like
um in in today's context and I think
what's even more so of a blowback
um you know kind of along the same
thread is is in in our communities we
see this impacting just the way in which
um we um you know we we talk about Islam
right and and what I mean by this is
sometimes you'll find it normalize that
Islam to me is right we can have certain
political figures and Powers say you
know my Allah is a she and it's under a
secular Paradigm it's totally it's
totally valid
um and so what this does is it offers a
privatization of Faith offers this
process of personalization of of
religion where you really do bypass
um the principles the Islamic in many
ways and it just becomes a matter of
picking and choosing it's almost like
sort of unmooring it or untethering it
from the gravity that is both provided
by believing that there is a as you said
a truth with a capital T like this is
the reality of what it is and it makes
it into well my interpretation is just
as equal as anybody else's
interpretation fourteen hundred years of
scholarship I can throw it all away or I
can delegitimize it by saying well they
were mostly men or patriarchy or
whatever and really and that's
significantly you know because one of
the one of the responses from the sort
of Muslim Progressive spear sphere to
the navigating differences document was
exactly on this point I I forget the
language that they used but the title of
the in in response to the navigating
differences document which was a
document that attempted to reassert that
epistemic weight and reassert sort of
that this is what Islam is and this is
what Islam says and you can either get
on board or not
um the the response from sort of folks
who have maybe internalized secularism
um on a you know sort of unwittingly was
that well hey we have just as much as
right as you do to interpret Islam and
we have just as much right to uh speak
for Islam as you do which you're saying
and I'm also saying is very very
problematic uh and a very Twisted way of
looking at it absolutely and the last
thing that I'll just kind of add here is
um you know all this takes place within
the idea of conceptualizing Islam but I
think when it translates over to
practice you also find that it's
becoming more and more popular in in our
local communities of you know Muslim
youth saying well you know what if I
don't feel quote-unquote benefits of
certain
is that a free pass for me to kind of
drop what I'm doing right again showing
that shift of mindset of you know
religion is supposed to you know satiate
the individual fancy right and so again
when we talk about Islam is a complete
way of life a world view and we talk
about stem as quite literally meaning
submission right this is a complete
shift of perspective and practice and by
that same logic then we could say well I
feel more spiritual sort of connection
by doing yoga or meditation than I do
with Salah and so I should then be
entitled to basically do those things in
place of or displacing what we know is
actually authentic guidance from Allah
which is a very scary thing
um so that's interesting because that
sort of addresses one segment of the
population which is sort of very much at
War whether they know it or not very
much at war with normative Islam with um
that epistemic Authority and weight that
you're talking about but there's also
segments of the Muslim population that
are sort of card carrying members they
self-understand as submitting as Etc and
yet secular power also sort of of shapes
the way in which they relate to their
own faith
um as any like a large and and vast
tradition maybe it forces them to
emphasize certain things over others
um or it causes them to be very aware or
hyper aware of certain things over
others could you give us some shed some
light on this phenomenon yeah absolutely
so I think you you noted here a really
important Point
um secularism impacts people very
differently right but it is pervasive
thought so meaning every single one of
us is going to taste or be touched by it
at some in some shape or form right some
a little bit more concretely than others
um or or maybe a little bit more
um you know
um identifiable than others but as far
as the way in in which secularism
perhaps is a little bit more subtle or
subtly influential we see this emphasis
on the Fatal dying right even again in
our communities and the way that you and
I perhaps Envision Islam
um you know many times what we think
about Islam fits neatly into this you
know
individualistic mode of practice so what
we'll find is you know the individual
obligations like the salon and unslam
and zika those are the things in the
heart softeners those are the things
that really get the spotlight in in our
communities and that typically is what
kind of yields the greatest number of
attendants or attendees for programs
right you find some of those more um I
wouldn't want to call them deeper
Sciences but you find maybe within you
know the the Islamic Sciences not
getting as many people because perhaps
they don't feel or the Muslim population
doesn't feel that they're as relevant to
study than the individual or ibadath and
things that pertain to themselves right
and so when we talk about Islam being a
comprehensive system
um that that asserts the fact that we're
not kind of all living on an island
ourselves the social and and and the
collective are very much part and parcel
of our Dean right well so we could like
um concretize that or illustrate that by
maybe so what's very much on the radar
of practicing Muslims in the west are
things like the Quran Salah obviously
and we're not demeaning those things and
we're taking away from their their
significance and their relevance and
their centrality but to show that what's
completely off the radar for example
would be like how we as Muslims should
be setting up our families or setting up
our communities in a way that we have
enough sort of collective gravity and
Collective power to let's say protect
our kids in the public schools to make
sure that they have the freedom to be
able to pray in school or to get out of
you know LGBT curriculum or things like
that things that are sort of again as
you said they're they're not just
working at the level of the individual
they're working at the community level
like who are your neighbors where are
the Muslims living like what are the
sort of you know um do we have like sort
of a guild of like Muslim business
owners right
um even coordination of zakat off to be
frank right the the coordination was a
cat is very very sporadic like is
there's a cat from the suburbs getting
to the inner city or is it going
somewhere else
um these are sort of are these is that a
fair sort of representation of some of
the issues maybe that that were
de-emphasizing and that are off our
radar because we're kind of funneled
into this way of of relating to Islam in
a very hyper individualistic sort of way
yeah absolutely I I'd agree with that
statement I think that also in the way
in which our our you know perhaps again
just me having background with Community
work with within you know the youth or
or youth work within the community I
will say it's like using them as case
studies is typically is is my go-to but
what I will say is if you were to ask
them what Islam is to them typically
many many would present it as just being
a good person right which boils down to
what individual ethics I.E centering on
the individual so yeah I definitely
think that there is this in focusing on
perhaps more of the subtle dying and and
it's not necessarily this like
intentional
um we're going to bypass
focusing in on or having conversations
on other types of failure I think I
think what it does is it just shows the
aftermath the byproduct of living in a
secular world that really pushes
religion to
um or pushes it to the private sphere so
much so that some you know part of the
religious religion isn't even in our
sphere anymore
um and so yeah I I definitely see it as
a natural byproduct this isn't to say
though that communal obligations are
completely off the table right
alhamdulillah we do have funeral
services that are are
um you know arranged congregational
prayer
um elements of social and you know
welfare programs but
um it's not it's not a complete holistic
something just occurred to me when you
were speaking about that that I had
never considered before but I think it
was extremely profound is that think
about how often the question is asked
can I be a good person without religion
and the framing of that question is
completely individualistic right
um and puts us honestly on a weak
terrain and even though we respond and
say well no you can't Define what it
means to be good without Islam or
without religion or you know what does
it mean to be a person the different
ideas of being a person
um are different depending if you
believe in an afterlife or believe in a
God or not but there's a whole uh
there's another level to critique that
is that why is that the question about
merely being a good person as opposed to
can we achieve a good Society without
Islam or can we achieve a good Society
without religion that would be sort of a
more sort of um radical question to ask
because it questions the the the
centrality of merely being a good
individual which has a sort of secular
logic at play and I think you know to on
to that and an even more fundamental
level
um what is good you know who gets to
decide good and so I think these
conversations are so important to be had
especially with our youth that are
carrying secular Liberal Liberal
assumptions um without realizing it's
about Allah yeah well said
um so you talked that okay there are
we're not saying that the father are
completely abandoned there are some that
sort of are more acceptable to to
practice and and are more front and
center than others
um one of the forkife that draws or at
least that occurs to me that sort of is
impacted by the the push of secular
power to privatize is the idea of
prohibiting what's evil
is that you know a lot of times or too
often in American society we are pushed
to merely sort of go along with the flow
and um assimilate and accept and not
make any waves as opposed to trying to
call out the evils
um in our society on terms that are
recognizably Islam terms with the
assumption that we can contribute that
we actually have something to add and to
offer to the society by intervening in
that sort of way do you have any
thoughts on on this sort of thing
absolutely so you know
having I think I think starting at you
know maybe on a foundational level we
talk about communal obligations right I
think the first question is well like
what defines our community right under a
secular Paradigm you have the
nation-state emphasize this idea of
national identity and that's that's that
that is what first comes to mind
um when when discussing this this
concept so when we talk about what we do
within our specific contexts over here
you know in in in the U.S context yes
things like congregational prayer and
um and and funeral services Etc are are
are taken care of to a certain degree
but when we think about you know as
Muslims having like more of an Ematic
lens that our communities aren't just
you know our local communities around us
or our national communities around us
that actually we are part and parcel of
a part of the fabric of a broader
Collective
um
then necessitates that we think about
our role in or our place in that that
broader ummah and so when we think about
the atrocities that are taking place
right now in Janine
um or you know modi's BJP party or we
take a look at the uyghur Muslims uh
that should make us uncomfortable and it
should put funkyfe back on our radar
right about well what do you and I have
to do outside of individual kind of
you know actions what as as a collective
can and should we do to uplift the ummah
so that's the first thing that comes to
mind but I think that you know dialing
it back and taking a look at you know
the Spheres of that we can perhaps
navigate in our context today
um you know on our local context I think
that
um it is it is a very tricky kind of
terrain to navigate and kind of going
back to what you were saying about the
language that we use to kind of check
off or or make our our kind of impact
seen heard known and impactful
um it it is it is really tricky because
it does you know rest on liberal secular
you know um sensitivities of language of
practice and we see that in you know the
first thing that comes to mind is the
lgbtq discourse right
um job security is on the line when it
comes to certain elements of of
commanding the good and forbidding the
evil
um and so kind of navigating these fears
it definitely proves to be
um tricky yeah no that's that's
extremely important and I think one
thing that
um that it brings my attention to is how
far tifaya requires a certain amount of
power building and requires a certain
amount of activism and coordination
um and so it might be off people's radar
because that is work that maybe people
are unfamiliar with or maybe they're not
accustomed to doing but you need to
develop we're not talking about doing
anything illegal but we're talking about
building capacity within our society to
have um to have a role right when you're
talking about Palestine and we've seen
how even the prevalence of social media
and sharing through social media uh
images and videos the the antagonism uh
around sort of uh and um and the places
of worship how even that within the last
few years has started to influence the
terms upon which uh the debate is being
talked about and people's feelings
towards it right so we're not talking
about anything other than building
capacity right it's like if if we have a
a communal responsibility and we have an
obligation to our brothers and sisters
in Palestine or in China or in other
places then we have to reverse engineer
it and be like okay like what is it
going to look like to shift the
discourse or to actually create
meaningful action from what we can do
and what are all steps in between that
we have to follow in order to build the
capacity for that action what types of
organizations need to exist what types
of lobbying needs to exist what types of
whatever it is
um so that's you know that requires us
to to go back to the drawing board and
and think really carefully about you
know what our our duty is and you I
think said it very very well is that
this is what's required of us actually
this actually demonstrates our loyalty
and our sincerity to our brothers and
sisters in Islam
um the second thing that you mentioned
that I'd like to to kind of Riff Off a
little bit is again what you said was
the the discourses that we use and how
we assert ourselves right so
um you know we talked on on the episode
we did on human rights about how
sometimes you might deploy a certain
discourse because it's going to be
legible right it's going to be
understood in a very immediate way and
people aren't ready really to like hear
something deeper or something that's a
more fundamental critique but the the
the risk that we run by only deploying
those discourses is that they start to
do work on us and they start to actually
displace the discourses and the values
that we have from Islam and I think a
really as you said the lgbtq sort of
issue especially in public schools is a
really
um is is very illustrative of this sort
of thing we have in Montgomery County
Maryland for example you know how are we
going to push back well okay if the
choice is initially to say well we want
opt out and we want parental choice
right like okay parental choice is
something it might be an immediate stop
Gap sort of solution but that's very
very different from saying this is wrong
this is immoral this is anti-family
we're pro-family you know so the choices
that we make in these sorts in this
chess match is really important how do
you see
um secular power funneling us into using
certain discourses over others and
what's the work that that is doing on
sort of our inside and how we relate to
Islam yeah that's a fantastic question
um I I'll say that if we were to go back
to the lgbtq issue
um and and and and take a look at how
the Muslims have been not necessarily
how we've kind of been cornered to use
secular liberal language to
um you know
be able to be heard and and to be taken
seriously and to kind of reach those
those goals they've all had to be you
know done to a certain degree
pragmatically right using secular
liberal language constitutional rights
right this goes against my conscience so
oftentimes what you see is
the secular Paradigm forces the Muslim
to adopt its own language to justify
religious Behavior practice and
conception versus using our own our own
religious language right saying that
something is morally
um you know wrong from the Islamic lens
is morally wrong under a secular
Paradigm right so it becomes really
tricky territory to kind of navigate and
I will say that with time pragmatism
might be you know might be the vehicle
through which we check off
um you know short-term wins but as far
as the long term goes uh we have to ask
ourselves that what does this do and
what kind of impact is this having on
the way that you and I as Muslims kind
of conceptualize our faith are we doing
things are we functioning via that that
road map of secular liberal language or
are we able to kind of tap into our own
um you know Islamic athlete that
um our own world view and assert
um the ability to practice because of
that world view and not not having to
kind of couch ourselves in secular
liberal language right so when we take a
look at even certainly about that the
way that we justify
um or feel the need to even justify
certain area about that um we find that
we kind of lean into our comfort zone of
secular liberal language that you know
if you were to take the the example of
like hijab for example right that it's
not just enough to say it's an
obligation from Allah and it's not just
an obligation in having a piece of cloth
but also the the howrah that's covered
the definition of what that aura is
um what that hijab looks like to a
certain degree that's all outlined but
in secular liberal language what makes
it comfy and almost justifiable to the
math classes is well no it's Liberation
it's empowerment it's free choice right
and so with time what that does is it
changes or impacts the Muslim psyche
itself right how we view our own D and
kind of going back to that first point
that we made about how Islam is becoming
um you know at least in the Muslim mind
is you know to a certain degree
um a matter of a series of choices that
you get to have a hand in
um making and also taking away that
again evaluative language or that
evaluates of grammar because if it
becomes simply a matter of choice if I'm
defending my hijab on the logic or the
principle of choice then I've asserted
at the same time that another choice
would be equally valid and equally
praiseworthy so to choose to not do it
would be just the same as far as
evaluating actions when that's actually
eroding our faith and eroding what our
faith stands for that not all something
doesn't become valuable merely because
you choose it actually it's valuable
whether Allah approves of it or not and
that's an extremely important
distinction that needs to be made so
what what you're saying what I'm saying
I think is that we need to be careful we
almost need to operate at two different
registers or at two different levels
that we might have to deploy certain
discourses and languages Etc ideas in
order to to get those short-term wins
but we have to at the same time be
working to identify what are the
obstacles that are in our way for sort
of having our own language be read and
registered within Society right in order
to call out something as immoral as
wrong right what are the things that are
standing in the way of that being
forceful and that being taken seriously
and how do we kind of position and
maneuver ourselves uh to get to the
point where one day because these things
are all in flux right people act like
it's just like oh there's nothing you
can do about it oh no they're all in
flux so we can actually work to a point
where one day that will mean something
to larger society to say that this is
wrong this is a moral this is against
what the Creator wants can actually be
read and let and and felt as something
that's significant instead of just being
sort of religious lunatics how it will
be read kind of currently
absolutely and I think just the reminder
that you know to think long term
um you know
you know functioning within the sphere
of of comfort I.E using secular liberal
language to to to make those wins I I
think we're to have those wins I think
what we have to constantly remind
ourselves is
um you know over time you lose your
Islam and you lose yourself right and so
that's that's the biggest loss that you
can have in the name of trying to secure
those Islamic rights you long term might
lose your Islam and so it becomes it's
again conversations that need to be had
with with with people who who are are
are more familiar and and more
knowledgeable on this but what I will
say is I I think I think it's it's an
important and tricky kind of um um
conversation that that needs to be had
because pragmatism of you know
most in most cases I think pragmatism
long term has some detrimental effects
yeah 100 yeah well
um so the sort of balance so we've
talked about okay there's the the
balance between thought and that's one
of the sort of
um cracks or fissures or sort of
Downstream consequences of secular power
on us another one is sort of the
language and discourses and values that
we use when we deploy when we're even
advocating for Islamic stances and
normative sort of Islamic practice
another thing that I know that both you
and I are very passionate about is how
the secular sort of um our knowledge has
been secularized and so even our
understanding of what it means to have
knowledge about Islam versus knowledge
of anything else is something that is
under a lot of reconfiguration uh due to
secular power could you could you talk
about how this affects us as Muslims
yeah absolutely and I think that one of
the ways that we can look at this is by
taking look at perhaps our Sunday school
curriculums or Islamic school
curriculums you know the Sunday School
model obviously being very different
than the Islamic school model just
because it is that one day a week three
hours with the hour and a half being you
know pizza and play time so
um what what I will say is that if we
were to take a look at most of what
these Islamic curriculums are for our
youth right and the reason why I think
it's so important to focus in on on the
curriculums aimed at youth specifically
is because this is typically formative
years right how you're building that
Islamic athlete the and and and and and
those curriculums in in many ways are
are reflective of what um you know we
deem as important you know elements of
Dean to kind of pass along to the Next
Generation yes what I will say is um you
know the curriculum that oftentimes is
presented
um by you know very well-intentioned
people very committed people to the you
know to the community
um I will say most of it deals with
um you know a Loosely strung individual
ethics right you might have some you
know abstract
um you know uh Concepts on Allah and the
prophet saws
um a lot of emphasis placed on because
we don't want you know Rowdy Muslim kids
um and so what you find is really like
this amalgamation of individual ethics
kind of plated to our Muslim Youth
Without The aspect of the Contemporary
oftentimes missing that really important
um component of connecting those little
dots of of Ethics
um and and principle to display broader
framework this this frame of reference
I.E the Islamic in our world view
um and so what you find is that you know
you have you know kids are you know that
are that are graduated from these
Islamic schools from pre-k and sometimes
they start them at like Pre-K too I
don't know how it works but um they
start them they start them before
kindergarten a couple years and then
some of them stick through until senior
year of high school but they still have
that very individual individualized
um mode of Islamic understanding and
that's not necessarily
um you know reflective on
um you know uh the the efforts so to
speak but more still on just the the
curriculum and and perhaps again the the
tricky territory that we're navigating
in this secular world yeah there's no
doubt I mean everybody it's the the
aunties that teach the Sunday School are
legendary everybody knows that they're
the legends of the community they put in
the most work but what we're calling for
is some high level strategy and some
high level thinking when we want all
those efforts and that sincerity to be
put to the best use possible and there
are certain structural elements there
are certain sort of curriculum decisions
there's some sort of instruction uh or
pedagogical decisions that are being
made that are actually making us waste a
bunch of time
um and there's like so so you lined out
like some multiple different strata upon
which it's happening one of them is the
even idea of just sort of like a
patchwork you know Sunday school where
we only have three hours as you said
it's not really even three hours and
this is somehow supposed to compete with
the you know eight hours a day or
whatever it is 5 days a week sort of
assembly line of public education and
now what they're getting in the even the
elementary schools the sort of
programming that they're being fed
um it's just not enough first of all
it's not it's not even structurally like
that amount of hours is not amount is
not a sufficient amount of hours to undo
um sort of the erosion of their of their
Dean that's happening in the the normal
week
um but that's even assuming that those
three hours are like super impactful and
super like you know
um with great curriculum and excellent
execution and that's also not happening
right so we have
um a lot of different issues and both
you and I you know are in Islamic
education for Youth and so we're kind of
on the ground level of this we've both
seen how Islamic Studies is really
treated as kind of a waste bin category
um and so it what in sort of a more
classical curricula are you know
separate subjects and separate sort of
things Hadith and tafsir and you know uh
and all these sort of different things
we just kind of throw them all together
as as Islamic Studies and then to add
insult to injury we demonstrate through
our priorities and and through our
choices that this is not really a very
important subject at all
um I remember when I I think I spoke at
ikma last year about this I took a a
schedule from one of the prominent
um Islamic schools so it was you know
five days a week school
um in the Chicago area and they had
Islamic Studies switching off every
other day with physical education
um whereas the subjects that did not
take a break were Math and Science and
all the sort of things that you know
um maybe we're communicating to our
youth that there's a certain
prioritization that's going on that what
is considered valuable knowledge and and
not so valuable knowledge
um is sort of we can we can talk a good
game right we can kind of uh say all the
right things but when it comes to the
how we're setting up these institutions
that often communicates these valuations
and these priorities that are going on
beneath the surface
yeah absolutely
um I think I think
I think goal really should be to present
Islam as present as operative as
relevant to lived experience and I think
that oftentimes unfortunately our youth
are shortchanged and then we question
why they have a lack of yet being right
um we question why Muhammad wants to be
called Moe and public school for example
right um and then on top of that there
is that
disjointed reality where we tell them
you you know youth Islam is important
Islam is important because we don't want
them to lose themselves
um oftentimes from you know immigrant
background families coming to to the
states not wanting their their their
kids to be lost but at the same time
confusing that child by placing emphasis
more so on
um you know quote-unquote academic study
and and I do take you know I do find it
problematic to even separate that like
secular knowledge versus Islamic
knowledge for example but
um I will say that oftentimes there's
just a push to say you know have your
basic everybody that's in check
um you know and and you should be good
to go but you still have to be that
doctor lawyer engineer right
um yeah um and so again there is that
like deep divide now if a child says
that they are serious about studying the
song studies and um I know here in our
community there was a mother expressing
um dissatisfaction with her her son
basically saying he didn't want to go to
college because he wanted to go study
Islam
her worry was well how is he going to
quote unquote be successful right right
right we're hyper fixated on the
material
um and
I'm going to take a look just as a side
note
um a lot of the the way that
universities are set up
um internationally in the Muslim world
is those in high school that earn the
lowest of the lowest scores uh the only
thing on the table for you in your
future career path is shitty ass studies
and I think that is so telling and so
detrimental to like the trajectory we're
on as an ummah like it's it's it's it's
baffling
um and so when you have Muslim youth
that take interest in a stem and and are
eager and hungry for knowledge
um oftentimes they're they're kind of
that cap is put on on um on their on
their eagerness and their excitement
totally and then we complain when we
have religious scholarship that's
disengaged or doesn't have sort of um
you know whether it's critical thinking
and sometimes that problem is that term
is misused rather
um but we We complain about the quality
of our religious discourse in the west
and we look at who are we putting forth
to study it and and engage in it and and
sort of make it translatable and
relatable to the masses and we only have
ourselves to blame the career
aspirations for our youth is a huge
issue and I'm glad that you brought it
up you know it's something that I
usually refer to as the Holy Trinity and
the Muslim Community is that doctor
lawyer engineer and that's simply not a
a realistic or a sustainable path
forward if we want to have people who
are you know where are the you talk
about curriculum okay we're we're
mentioning these things about Islamic
schools or about weekend schools if you
want to do like how many Muslim
homeschoolers that I know that they rely
on Christian uh curriculum because there
is no valid disorder or or sort of
workable Islamic curriculum for them to
use when it comes to specific subjects
like English or science or things like
that right you turn around and like well
we have these ideas we want Islam to be
presented and unify like islamicize
science and islamicize math and do this
work or kind of re-stitching together
um you know the secular and the
religious were re-sacralizing or ReSound
defying knowledge but then you turn
around it's like who's going to do the
work who's going to write the curriculum
who's going to who's got the PhD in
education Administration or and very few
honestly like extremely few when it
comes to the the Muslim Community in the
west uh so we kind of again are standing
in our own way
um we're good when it comes to we have
doctors masha'allah we have lots of
people in those fields and the prophet
saws warned us about Dunya he warned us
about loving the world too much and
exactly what you said I have the same
experience how many people when they
learn that their child has a passion for
studying Islam
um their reaction is not one of of Joy
um but one of
um sort of Despair uh that just tells
you everything that you need to know
about where we're at as a community and
how much that we've kind of clamped down
on prioritizing the Dunya over the
afterlife and no one's calling for you
know sometimes to say yeah Imam you know
but you know we can't all just study you
know the religion and we have to take
care of the Dunya and my my response to
that is always well the the if the day
comes where I see all of our teenagers
just like spending all day in the Masjid
and they refuse to go out and you know
do whatever then okay I'll bring them
back to the middle and I'll tell them
about the importance of going and
seeking their livelihood etc etc but
that's not the extreme that we're at
right now we're at the opposite extreme
and so we need to find the balance where
we've got sort of all of our bases uh
covered
there's a lot of ways there's a lot of
ways we could probably have even an
entire
independent discussion
um about how this sort of valuation this
materialistic valuation has sort of
changed the way that we relate to things
but one thing that's significant is how
our sort of the materialistic values
that we have even as even the practicing
Muslims even the people who understand
themselves as practicing uh obedient
Muslims is in sort of it affects our own
tradition and how we relate to it right
so we have the so-called you know
Islamic golden age right which if you
and I say golden age we're probably
talking about the time of the Prophet
Muhammad in the time of the rashidin but
most people when they talk about the
Islamic Golden Age they're talking about
Beethoven they're talking about the
Abbasid period the poetry and then this
and that the third there are serious
ways in which we've been indoctrinated
to Value the material and material
success over the spiritual success
um and I'm hoping maybe you can just
give a little bit more comment about
about that yeah absolutely so um it is
it is always interesting that you know
um we it's it's termed as like the
Golden Age of stem because it completely
contradicts the Hadith Prophet when he
talks about the best Generations
um and and he's he isn't referring to us
the amazing so you know when we talk
about how we even like the metric of
success
um for the Muslim life yeah it has
nothing to do with the material
um you know yes we we all have to check
off certain goals and and and and play a
role in this world but when we think
about submission and we think about
impact and we think about holding on to
our identity and the proliferation of
Islamic knowledge
um and the strengthening of communities
that is our measure of success if we're
able to kind of not be a part of the Pew
research study of um
of like being one of the excuse me I'm
just gonna take a show tomorrow
I'm gonna restart that if that's okay
that's fine I'm just yeah I'm a little
bit under the weather still yeah I mean
I'll carry you I mean um yeah so if we
talk about the Golden Age of Islam and
and we say that it completely
contradicts the Hadith the prophet saw
them
um where uh you know the best of
generations are clearly outlined right
he's not talking about this specific
moment in time it's not a reference to
the amazing
um you you you know it's it's this
emphasis that we have kind of shifted in
perspective to to say our metric of
success equals
um you know materialistic wins and from
the Muslim perspective you can be
um you know if you if you've got from
you know a strong commitment
um to your Dean you submission to Allah
strong communities that have yet right
where we don't have the fear of
belonging to an inshallah we reach that
day where we don't belong to that that
pure research study one of the one in
four who who lose their religion and and
belongs to that category of nuns right
um in in the American context
um and those are wins right that is
success and so I don't think that the
metric for success is to say wow 95 of
our community or our youth are um you
know have X Y and Z careers
um and and we've won right I think that
if a clear measure of success is to say
well does that Ahmed uh does that Fatima
is that actually are they committed to
the truth and do they know it as being
truth and want to spread that truth and
stay committed to it
um forever and does it feel that they
can actually make impact on the world
around them via their Islamic loans and
and what the dean has to offer versus
just simply money right
um so there's there's some food for
thought there and I know it's not as
simple to say you know everybody kind of
take on um the role of of jumping into
Islamic Studies
has Diversified this ummah and our
talents and our strengths and it's
really just a matter of us identifying
doing that intrinsic work identifying
what our strengths are and tapping into
them so we can make impact
um in this world and that inshallah will
be a source of reward in the Hereafter
very well said and I really love the
fact that you brought up that one of the
goals and one of the sort of
consequences of getting out of our own
way and sort of realigning ourselves
with this balance that Allah wants for
us and our perspective and our attitude
and our disposition is that we're
actually going to be able to uplift
those around us we're actually going to
be able to contribute to society and we
as Muslims believe that Islam has the
answers for for for everything so if our
society is struggling with particular
sort of issues then we're actually sort
of depriving those around us by holding
back or by getting lost in the Dunya or
or sort of valuating ourselves and our
children in just materialistic terms
when we should believe axiomatically
that Islam can and will if we let it
sort of solve whatever is facing us
um and that ironically is probably
what's going to get us more respect from
other people who aren't Muslims rather
than just trying to blend in and be like
everybody else
so I want to take this really really
seriously this idea that Islam will
solve society's issues if we let it
um and so I want to get your thoughts as
to what are some of the
um most pressing issues that in North
America or the United States in
particular that we're facing and how can
Islam sort of provide an alternative if
we kind of get out of the way and do the
work to sort of show that to people and
to demonstrate it yeah it's a huge
question and I think that it's a
multi-layered question if we're going to
talk about one of the you know problems
I think that you know are we talking
about problems in the crisis of Faith
right the fact that you have generations
of of of of
um individuals who feel like they can
actually live without purpose right
that's a huge problem that obviously
Islam
um has has has the capacity
um and is the answer to and then on the
flip side we can see that you know the
real issues that exist around us whether
they be environmental issues whether
they be you know the breaking down of
the you know traditional family and and
social structure and the fabric that's
that all rests on
um you know one would argue that these
issues that are you know so prevalent
and so clear and so damaging are are at
the societal level are at the political
level and I think that in many ways
they're caused by Nations right and so
this Co this this this I think this this
conversation is is much larger than
simply you know you know we have
environmental issues well how does
Islam's view of the environment and
animal rights
um you know what are those those those
kind of principles that are in place
that you and I as individuals can kind
of enact
um you know in the most uplifted of ways
but I think that if we're going to talk
about Solutions through and through
these issues are caused on a large-scale
political level and I think that there
needs to be you know serious
conversation on um you know Islam as
like a self-determined
um entity in these fears right where
we're not playing by other people's
rules but we aren't having to count
ourselves in secular liberal language
where we are able to take a look at our
some as a comprehensive system that can
really replace the ills of society with
with you know using our principles in
hand not kind of doing that paste
Patchwork
um and so I I take a look at this
conversation think it's it's it's such a
a deep conversation that needs to be had
and part of the work that I guess is
like a nice shout out to to omadics with
Dr R weymer and his and his team it's
such an important Endeavor may Allah
give them success upon success but
um you know
re-establishing that omatic view
re-establishing that vision of Islam as
a self-determined entity because it's
important now if we're going to talk
about the issues that surround us that
we can kind of take individual dual
steps towards perhaps alleviating or
placing a Band-Aid on yeah we can take a
look at those principles in isolation I
would argue right so for example if you
were to take a look at you know secular
activism in in in in in response to in
regards to the environment versus
Islamic activism might be talking about
consumption right so I might I might
take a look at that and say well you
know what uh you know maybe less
consumption versus careful consumption
for example right um being an
irresponsible consumer as per the you
know the secular model versus taking a
look at the creation of Allah as a moral
obligation that's on me right so those
are those are you know within our
individual capacity but I think if we're
talking about complete shift and change
in in structure that takes a new
structure because clearly industrial
Nations
um you know have create and will
continue to create the most destruction
and I know what hadak has a fantastic
quote
um where he says capitalism
industrialism and the resultant
destruction of natural habitat are not
the work of nature they are the effects
of so-called progress so in the case of
changing kind of the Dynamics that are
around us
um you know I think it's going to take
more than just alleviating quote unquote
via individual efforts because that
would be as ironic as it sounds a
secular kind of um you know walk but um
and it isn't to say that that has no
place and that we shouldn't be trying
within our own capacity because Allah
will ask each and every one of us you
know about what we do in within our
realm of responsibility but I think if
we talk about truly creating lasting
change uh we have to be honest in saying
that these are political economic
structures that need to be you know and
and broader longer deeper conversations
with qualified individuals need to be
had on how we can kind of carefully and
creatively maneuver these within our
Islamic principles yeah so that's
wonderful so just just to put some meat
on the bones there
um so we're distinguishing between sort
of like oh I'm going to use a metal
water bottle instead of a plastic water
bottle which is sort of an individual
Choice versus like you know one of the
most polluted lakes in the state is up
here right next to Syracuse there's just
an hour drive from us there was a a time
period where legally they were just
dumping like toxic sludge into the lake
to the point where they killed all the
living species in the lake and now it's
still like a a radioactive mess and
nobody can swim in it and you know the
the cleanup is going to take decades if
not centuries right so looking at why is
there even a legal possibility for that
thing in the first place
um that's another level and then even a
further level beyond that is sort of
well what's our attitude towards nature
in the first place are we sort of
operating under the assumption that you
know the world is our oyster and and
nature is to just mute and brute and
dumb and we get to manipulate it and
Conquer it in the way that we like which
is sort of an Enlightenment sort of
orientation towards relating to it or is
this a sake of trust are we given sort
of a position of power and influence to
intervene as an Amana from Allah that
we're going to be responsible for every
single thing every single tree that
could be cut down we might be
responsible for the there's the the
Hadith the problem that for thou Adam
that every single creature asks
forgiveness
right even the fish in the sea because
it's understood that somebody who's
properly grounded or properly oriented
morally
um they're not going to do those things
like those those actions and this is
sort of the point of halach and others
that those actions are off the table
they're not even part of the
conversation because that person's
entire sense of what their purpose is in
life and their sort of situatedness well
like like who they are is supposed to
completely categorically make those
decisions uh impossible they know that
they're going to burn in Hellfire
basically for or be punished in some
sort of way
um if they were to do those sorts of
things so that's sort of like I I always
sort of laugh at how the secular sort of
environmentalist movement
um hamstrings itself and it almost is
gets in its own way much like the Muslim
Community does because for example to to
pitch the idea as a problem of climate
change well now you've sort of basically
you've tied it to a result which is the
change and now you've made basically the
locus of debate is it changing or not
now everybody who's against this I know
it's not really changing or they're
saying well it's changing but this
change is not human made or it's a
natural change as part of this larger
cycle you've lost the plot already like
you've lost the argument by even getting
into the weeds with this type of
argument in the first place whereas
Muslims we're not so consequentialist or
utilitarian we're not going to pitch the
issue as just well if the climate is
changing that's when we step in and act
no we're supposed to do the right thing
from the beginning right whether it has
a negative consequence in the Dunya or
not right like the prophet saws said if
you have a sapling in your hand and the
day of the judgment is is established
you plant the sapling right this has
nothing to do with the consequences or
or if the climate's changing or not
changing if the the globe is warming or
not warming do the right thing right no
matter what and I think that's one of
the especially with the environment that
Islam sort of stands to teach the world
right is that you do the right thing no
matter what and we don't just reduce it
to the sort of materialistic or
secularist logic where we're waiting now
to say oh well but now we have to prove
scientifically whether it's really
changing or not and then they're going
to accuse our scientists of fudging the
numbers and maybe we're tempted to fudge
the numbers because we really want to
prove to people that it's changing it
misses the whole point
um there's other areas that I'd like to
see you know your your ideas upon one of
the things in addition to the
environment I think that is a colossal
challenge for everybody and Muslims
included is the the social and familial
fracturing that's going on families are
sick and weak right the extended family
is has been almost broken by sort of the
capitalist two-income household and all
this sort of stuff you know um
and it has tangible effects on children
and how they're raised and has tangible
effects for
um you know when it comes to even
people's religiosity like what do they
have available time to dedicate to you
know
um what is Islam how can a slam save the
day when it comes to uh the family and
to our our social bonds yeah absolutely
again huge conversation probably could
even be its own but what I will say just
I guess to touch on that is again
elements of um you know establishing the
fact I guess if we just dial it back a
little bit that each of us do not live
on our own our you know Island when
Allah
you know even if we're to go back to the
the two categories of
right the fact that Islam creates that
differentiation between individual
obligations and communal obligations is
an acknowledgment it's an assertion that
you belong to or like the world and your
lived experience and your role in it
goes Way Beyond the self right and you
actually it's a series of Rights on you
and your rights on others and so when we
talk about you know the fabric over like
the social fabric of society and
familial bonds obviously we've got this
little about him right you've again
you've got this emphasis on community
um that even goes beyond just blood
relations right um you know emphasis on
neighborly attachments and tons of
Hadith on on on on that but what I will
say is it's it's this emphasis that you
are not
you know as a lonesome Ranger on your
own right that you actually have an
obligation
to create that cohesiveness in society
and to play a role and so when we talk
about you know kind of um in today's
context of people relocating because of
jobs right
um and everyone kind of being on an
island on their own then yes you do have
that natural blowback of
um not having support when it comes to
raising the next generation of Muslim
kids you don't have the support or
perhaps the resources to do your own
kind of individualistic or
individualized study I should say of
Islam because you don't really have time
right you're so focused on keeping your
little world in intact that you know you
you yourself don't have
um that space to to thrive in your own
sphere so to speak so you know there's
there's wisdom in having you know if we
were to take a look at like the Islamic
tradition which encourages again those
those the strong bonds and and that that
support and that upliftment
um you know within that that broader
category of community
um there's wisdom in that
um yeah yeah no I'm so we're talking
about like you know what are we
prioritizing and how are we making our
decisions and I think what we're trying
to shed a light on is that it's
considered acceptable to society to move
to the other side of the country for a
job if it's a promotion or to move away
from your parents or to move away from
your siblings
um but it has consequences and we're
trying to say that you know the the
family structure in Islam is is a
normative thing it's not just accidental
it's not just a matter of History that's
what they were doing at the time is that
you know when we see sort of what some
people would characterize as inequality
when it comes to meet oth right like
inheritance that there's an
understanding there about how a family
should operate there's an understanding
about how the relationships within a
family should be you know have a certain
proximity and have a certain amount of
interdependence and that there's
actually ironically more more freedom
and happiness and Leisure and you know
just better results in general if we
have a certain
proximity or thickness to the bonds of
our family and whenever we let those
bonds Fray or let those bonds erode then
that actually is putting us on very
vulnerable terrain when it comes to even
our material you know world but
especially our spiritual World
um so we're really asking people to kind
of um you know instead of just getting
sucked into what everybody else is doing
the rat race you you have a a house that
you can barely afford the you know the
payments for and you're in the the nice
suburb with the good school district and
you know whatever sort of the decisions
that you've made you know what would it
look like to be more intentional about
this thing what would it look like to
um to follow the advice of one of my
Messiah and Medina to have the Muslims
all live together right next to each
other in a neighborhood with a Masjid
with different sort of Institutions that
we're talking about two completely
different ways of life
um and honestly ways of life that are
going to yield much better results
um not just in the Dunya but also
hopefully uh in the afterlife
as you said these are these are enormous
topics on each one of them deserves sort
of separate treatment and maybe one day
inshallah we'll we'll get to do that
um but we're coming up upon an hour here
and I think that it might be most
appropriate to put this conversation to
bed
um do you have any final thoughts or
comments that you'd like to share
um yeah I think I think one thing that
I'll say rather the last thing that I'll
say is these conversations are so
important to be had and I think that
when we talk about isms whether it be
secularism liberalism or otherwise I
think that awareness needs to be had
that
um you know pervasive thought impacts us
sometimes you know in subtle ways that
that requires deep thought and requires
us to kind of take a step back and peel
back the layers of specificity on how to
kind of tackle and maneuver this you
know for those of us
um that that are are here and living
under secular societies you know I I
think you know it's it's it's imperative
that we acknowledge the elephant in the
room that no one is safe right you have
to it it puts it on or should put that
on our radar
um every every Muslim needs to be
thinking about this and every Muslim
needs to be thinking about creative ways
on how we can maneuver and navigate this
in a careful way where we don't lose our
Dean um and that we are taking steps
forward within our capacity
um as as an individual and then again
again as a collective so maybe I'll just
gives us you know give us the strength
and still feel to do it I mean excellent
thank you so much Daniel hanini for
being on the program today we look
forward to many more conversations in
Charlotte