>>> IT WAS A RARE SIGHT IN CONGRESS.
CONGRESS. A HEARING ON REPARATIONS HELD IN
ONE OF THE MANY BUILDINGS IN
WASHINGTON BUILT ON SLAVE LABOR.
TA-NEHISI COATES HELPED KICK
START THIS ROUND OF THE
REPARATIONS DEBATE.
REPARATIONS DEBATE. JOINING ME NOW IS TA-NEHISI
COATES, CURRENT AUTHOR OF THE
MARVEL COMICS "THE "BLACK
PANTHER"" AND CAPTAIN AMERICA.
THANKS FOR HAVING YOU HERE.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, CHRIS.
>> YOU’VE NEVER TESTIFIED AT A
CONGRESSIONAL HEARING BEFORE.
>> NO.
>> NO. >> WHAT WAS IT LIKE?
>> THERE WAS NO POSSIBLE WAY TO
PREPARE FOR IT.
IT WAS COMPLETELY, COMPLETELY
DIZZYING.
DIZZYING. I THINK THE PARTICULAR
INTENSITY -- I MEAN, AS I WAS
JOKING, I STILL HAVE THE SAME
SUIT ON.
SUIT ON. SO THAT’S A STATEMENT.
I APOLOGIZE, BUT IT WAS
DIZZYING.
DIZZYING. AND I THINK THE PARTICULAR
ENERGY AROUND THIS WAS JUST
LIKE, I MEAN, UNLIKE ANYTHING
I’D EVER SEEN.
I’M A WRITER, I’M A JOURNALIST.
I’M USED TO WRITING THINGS AND
GOING AHEAD AND DOING WHATEVER
I’M DOING.
I’M DOING. BUT THIS IS PROVING TO BE QUITE
DIFFERENT.
DIFFERENT. >> IT’S INTERESTING TO ME, THE
MOMENT FOR THIS PARTICULAR
ISSUE, THIS IS NOT -- YOU KNOW,
THE ISSUE DID NOT ARISE WITH
YOUR ATLANTIC ARTICLE.
IT’S A LONG-STANDING, AND AS YOU
SAY IN THAT ARTICLE AND SAY IN
EVERY OPPORTUNITY, IT’S BUILT
UPON DECADES AND DECADES OF
SCHOLARSHIP AND OTHER FOLKS.
BUT IT FEELS LIKE THERE’S A ACHI
DEGREE OF MAINSTREAM LEGITIMACY
THAT IS NEW.
>> I THINK TWO THINGS ARE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.
THE FIRST IS AND THIS IS NOT
FAIR, BUT I THINK THE ATLANTIC
ENJOYS A KIND OF SPACE AMONG
VERY SERIOUS PEOPLE.
I JUST HAVE TO BE FRANK.
I KNEW THIS AT THE TIME.
LOOK, PEOPLE CAN BE RIGHT UP ON
ONE SIDE AND DOWN THE OTHER.
WITH THE OUTLET WITH PEOPLE THAT
SAID IT AND IT BECOMES
DIFFERENT.
DIFFERENT. THAT’S NOT FAIR.
I THINK TRUMP AND TRUMP
PARTICULARLY FOLLOWING BARACK
OBAMA HAD A RADICALIZING EFFECT
ON A LOT OF PEOPLE.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE
HEAR A LOT ABOUT AND YOU TALKED
ABOUT YESTERDAY AND I WANT TO
PLAY THE SOUND OF MITCH
McCONNELL AND LINDSEY GRAHAM,
THERE IS A BUNCH OF ARGUMENTS.
THIS WAS A LONG TIME AGO AND NO
ONE ALIVE TODAY IS RESPONSIBLE
FOR IT.
FOR IT. TAKE A LISTEN.
>> I JUST THINK WE ARE SO FAR
REMOVED FROM THE EFFECT, IT WAS
THE ORIGINAL SIN OF THE COUNTRY.
LET’S JUST MAKE IT A MORE
PERFECT UNION RATHER THAN
LOOKING BACKWARD BECAUSE I DON’T
KNOW WHERE IT STOPS WHEN YOU DO
THAT.
THAT. >> I DON’T KNOW CURRENTLY ALIVE
WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.
I DON’T THINK WE SHOULD BE
TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO
COMPENSATE FOR IT.
IT WOULD BE HARD TO FIGURE OUT
WHO TO COMPENSATE.
>> YOU ADDRESSED THAT DIRECTLY
IN THE TESTIMONY.
>> I DID.
>> I DID. I THINK THAT’S AN OPPORTUNISTIC
NOTION OF CITIZENSHIP.
AS I SAID YESTERDAY, WE HAVE
TIES AND DEBTS AND CREDITS THAT
WE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT GO FAR BACK
BEYOND THE TIME IN THE LAST
ENSLAVED PERSON.
ENSLAVED PERSON. YOU CAN JUST LOOK AT THE
BUILDING IN WHICH THESE PEOPLE
WORK.
WORK. YOU WORK IN A CAPITAL THAT WAS
BUILT FOR ENSLAVED PEOPLE.
YOU ARE THERE ENJOYING THE
BENEFITS OF THEIR LABOR.
IF YOU DON’T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE
OUR TIES, AS MUCH AS YOU DON’T
WANT TO WORK ON THE ANACOSTIA
RIVER.
RIVER. I’M BEING FLIP ABOUT THAT, BUT
THIS IS TRUE.
I WAS DOING THE RESEARCH.
AS LATEST AS 2017, WE WERE
PEGGING PENSIONS TO THE LAST
HEIR OF A CIVIL WAR VETERAN.
WE ARE AT THIS VERY MOMENT STILL
PAYING PENSIONS TO THE VETERANS
OF SPANISH-AMERICAN WAR.
LONG BEFORE I WAS ALIVE AND YOU
WERE ALIVE AND WE DON’T HAVE A
PROBLEM WITH THAT.
>> ONE OF THE POINTS THAT STRUCK
ME ABOUT THE GEORGETOWN STORY,
THIS IS FASCINATING.
THIS IS ONE UNIVERSITY.
IT’S A LABORATORY AND A LITTLE
PILOT PROGRAM.
PILOT PROGRAM. IN THAT CASE, IT’S LIKE THERE
ARE RECORDS OF THIS STUFF.
>> SURE.
>> SURE. >> THEY HAVE THE 272 NAMES AND
THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT THEY
ARE GOING TO SPEND AND THE
COMMUNITY WHERE THEY CAN TRACK
THE DESCENDENTS.
THE DESCENDENTS. >> LISTEN, AS I SUGGESTED, THIS
IS NOT JUST ABOUT ENSLAVEMENT.
YOU CAN TRACK ENSLAVEMENT, BUT
JIM CROWE, THAT’S EASY.
I WENT AND FOUND THEM.
>> THE HOPING OF THE ARTICLE IS
ON THE WEST SIDE OF CHICAGO.
>> IT’S NOT HARD TO FIND PEOPLE
THAT WOULD VICTIMIZE AND SUFFER
AND LOST WEALTH AND HAD HEALTH
STOLEN FROM THEM UNDERNEATH IT.
AS FAR AS I’M CONCERNED, PEOPLE
WHO FEEL LIKE THE PROBLEM HERE
IS WE CAN’T IDENTIFY WHO IT IS.
WHY DON’T YOU SUPPORT HR 40 AND
LET’S FIND OUT.
IT’S JUST A STUDY.
WHY DON’T WE FIND OUT?
YOU FEEL LIKE THAT?
POSSIBLY YOU ARE RIGHT.
LET’S FIND OUT.
>> THE LEGISLATION YOU WERE
TESTIFYING ABOUT YESTERDAY IS
ESSENTIALLY TO COMMISSION A
STUDY TO LOOK INTO ALL OF THESE
DIFFERENT PARTICULARITIESES OF
THE LOGISTICS OF IT.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. YOUR OBJECTION IS PROCEDURAL, I
DON’T KNOW IF WE CAN FIND THESE
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. LET’S HAVE THE STUDY.
THAT’S WHAT THE STUDY IS FOR.
HOW MUCH ARE WE GOING TO PAY,
WHO ARE WE GOING TO PAY IT TO.
LET’S HAVE A STUDY.
THE OTHER THING IS WE DID THIS
BEFORE.
BEFORE. THIS IS NOT UNPRECEDENTED.
WE DID THIS WITH
JAPANESE-AMERICANS WHO WERE
INTERNED RIGHTFULLY DURING WORLD
WAR II.
WAR II. THE CITY OF CHICAGO HAS DONE
REPARATIONS FOR THE VICTIMS OF
JOHN BIRD AND THE STATE OF NORTH
CAROLINA HAS DONE REPARATIONS
FOR THE VICTIMS OF WHAT WAS A
STATE-WIDE EUGENICS POLICY
AGAINST BLACK AND POOR WOMEN.
THIS IS NOT UNFOUNDED TERRITORY
HERE.
HERE. >> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE
POLITICS OF THIS ISSUE.
IT’S INTERESTING TO ME.
MITCH McCONNELL GETS ASKED ABOUT
IT.
IT. IT IS IN THE BLOOD STREAM.
HERE’S THE POLLING.
FOUR DIFFERENT POLLS.
MARIST AND DATA FOR PROGRESS AND
FOX.
FOX. THEY ARE ALL WITHIN ABOUT 25 OR
26% AND A BIG MAJORITY SAYING
NO.
NO. MY FEELING ABOUT REPARATIONS IS
THAT THE CASE SUBSTANTIVELY IS
IRON CLAD.
IRON CLAD. 100% PERSUADED AND IT’S
POLITICAL SUICIDE FOR A NATIONAL
POLITICIAN TO RUN ON IT ON A
NATIONAL CAMPAIGN.
NATIONAL CAMPAIGN. >> FIRST OF ALL, THAT’S NOT MY
PROBLEM.
PROBLEM. I WOULD NOT -- I DON’T THINK ANY
OF US WOULD SAY DURING A PERIOD
ABOUT MARRIAGE EQUALITY ENJOYED
TERRIBLE POLL NUMBERS THAT
PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE GIVEN UP ON
POLITICIANS AND LET UP ON BARACK
OBAMA OR THE CLINTONS FOR
SIGNING THE DEFENSIVE MARRIAGE
ACT.
ACT. IF I AS A WRITER TO THE EXTENT
BECAME AN ADVOCATE AND I SAY IF
IT POLLS WELL, THAT’S WHAT I
WILL BE WRITE BEING.
THEN I’M DEAD.
PART OF THAT POLLING IS THAT WE
HAVEN’T HAD SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS.
THAT POLLING IS NOT AN ABSTRACT
FIGURE THAT IS NOT CONNECTED TO
OTHER THINGS.
OTHER THINGS. THE FACT IS WE HAVEN’T HAD THE
DISCUSSIONS THAT WE ACTUALLY HAD
YESTERDAY.
YESTERDAY. I THINK TO THE EXTENT THAT WE
CAN PUSH THIS FORWARD AND HAVE
SERIOUS CONVERSATIONS LIKE WE
DID YESTERDAY, I WOULD EXPECT
THAT POLLING TO CHANGE.
>> DO YOU THINK THAT ONE THING
THAT WOULD CHANGE THAT POLLING
IS TALKING ABOUT THE
NITTY-GRITTY OF IT?
>> LISTEN, THERE WILL BE -- WHEN
I WROTE THE CASE OF REPARATIONS,
ONE OF THE MOST SHOCKING THINGS
WAS THE SHEER NUMBER OF WHITE
PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY
WHO EITHER CAME UP TO ME OR
WROTE ME AND SAID I DIDN’T KNOW
ABOUT RED LINING.
I LEGIT DIDN’T KNOW.
AS A WRITER, MY JOB IS TO TELL
YOU THE TRUTH.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT COMES AFTER
THAT.
THAT. AT THAT POINT I PROBABLY DID NOT
VIEW MYSELF -- I WOULD HAVE
LOOKED AT THE POSSIBILITY OF ME
TESTIFYING BEFORE CONGRESS AND
SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
SHOCKED ME WAS THE IGNORANCE.
THE PEOPLE LEGIT DON’T WANT TO
KNOW.
KNOW. YOU CAN LAY OUT THE FACTS AND
THEY DON’T CARE.
YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO CONVINCE
THEM.
THEM. AT THE SAME TIME THERE IS A
LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO
LITERALLY DON’T KNOW.
THEY HAVE NEVER GIVEN
REPARATIONS A SERIOUS
CONSIDERATION.
CONSIDERATION. >> YOU AND I DISCUSSED THIS ALL
THE TIME IN PRIVATE
CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
CONVERSATIONS ABOUT RECONSTRUCTION PARTICULARLY AND
THE BIRTH OF THIS.
NO ONE KNOWS THE HISTORY OF IT.
>> NO ONE KNOWS.
>> THAT ARE CHAPTER IS LOST IN
AMERICAN HISTORY ABOUT WHAT
HAPPENED.
HAPPENED. >> NO ONE KNOWS.
>> THERE WAS A COMMENT I WANT TO
ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT JOE BIDEN
MADE.
MADE. IT RELATES DIRECTLY ABOUT THE
SORT OF WAYS THAT WE CAN FIGURE
OUR MEMORY OF THE PAST.
WHITE SUPREMACY AND SEGREGATION
ABOUT THE FACT THAT THERE WERE
WHITE SUPREMACISTS
WHITE SUPREMACISTS SEGREGATIONISTS AND DEMOCRATIC
SENATORS THAT HE WAS ELECTED TO
OPPOSE AND HE DID.
HE HAD DIFFERENT VIEWS AND HE
WAS ABLE TO WORK WITH THEM.
HE’S TALKING ABOUT THIS OLD
MODEL OF HOW THE SENATE WORKED
AND HE HAS COME UNDER CRITICISM
AND CORY BOOKER AMONG ANOTHERS.
CURIOUS WHAT YOU MADE OF THAT.
>> LISTEN, THE PROBLEM HERE IS
NOT THAT HE HAD POLITE
RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEOPLE WHO
HAD DEEPLY, DEEPLY DEPLORABLE
VIEWS.
VIEWS. THE PROBLEM IS THOSE VERY POLITE
REAPS WERE PREMISESED ON THE
FACT THAT THOSE PEOPLE’S DEEPLY
DEPLORABLE VIEWS ACTUALLY
DISENFRANCHISED AN ENTIRE SECTOR
OF THE ELECTORATE.
THERE WAS A REASON WHY THE
RELATIONSHIPS WENT AWAY.
PART OF THE REASON THEY WENT
AWAY IS BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE ARE
A VOTING FORCE IN THE SOUTH.
MUCH TOFT CHAGRIN OF OTHER
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. THERE IS A LACK OF
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT. >> THE PRICE OF THAT CALMED
PEACE.
PEACE. >> YES, YES.
>> YOU DIDN’T CROSS THEM ON
RACE.
RACE. YOU COULD DEAL WITH ALL SORTS OF
DIFFERENT THINGS AND TRADE
HORSES ON A MILLION THINGS.
>> I DON’T THINK TO THE EXTENT
THAT I CAN CREDIT HIM, I DON’T
THINK HE REALIZES THAT AND MAYBE
HE DOESN’T WANT TO, BUT THERE IS
A REASON WHY THOSE WERE ABLE TO
BE POLITE WITH HIM.
I THINK FOR A LOT OF BLACK
PEOPLE WHEN WE HIT IT, IT’S KIND
A SECONDARY ENDORSEMENT AS CRAZY
AS THIS SOUNDS OF JIM CROW.
THAT WAS THE BASIS ON WHICH THAT
PIECE WAS CONSTRUCTED.
>> YOU DON’T THINK JOE BIDEN --
>> THAT’S NOT THE POINT.
THAT’S WHY I SAID SECONDARY.
LIKE WHAT HE’S ENDORSING IS THE
PEACE.
PEACE. THE PEACE IS ACTUALLY BUILT ON
SOMETHING QUITE HORRIBLE.
WITHOUT THAT HORRIBLE THING,
THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN
CIVILITY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
>> THE PEACE IS THE STORY OF
AMERICAN POLITICS.
AMERICAN POLITICS. >> THE STORY OF RECONSTRUCTION
AND REDEMPTION AND THAT EXTENDS
UP TO HIM HAVING THAT GREAT
RELATIONSHIP.
RELATIONSHIP. >> SHOULD I SAY THIS.
IN THE YEAR 2019, IT’S
REMARKABLE HOW MUCH UNTOLD THERE
IS.
IS. OR NEWS TO BE RETOLD TIME AND
TIME AGAIN WHICH BRINGS ME IN
YOUR NOFALLY THAT COMES OUT IN
SEPTEMBER.
SEPTEMBER. >> ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THIS?
>> WE ARE NOT.
IT’S RASHLGABLE AND REALLY A