I have such terrible social anxiety.
A lot of authors are introverts.
>> Mm-hm.
>> The whole deal was that we get to write in our underpants, and
that's the deal like we- >> [LAUGH]
>> I thought we agree to this.
>> [LAUGH]
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>> Hi, it's Karah Preiss from Belletrist.
>> And it's Ebony Ladelle from Epic Reads.
And we're here with Mary H.K Choi, the author of Permanent Record which we are so
excited to talk about.
>> This beautiful package over here.
>> It's true everyone loves my package.
>> [LAUGH] So for those of you who don't know, Permanent Record follows Pablo,
he's a recent NYU dropout who works at a Bodega.
>> One of the things that really stood out to me
about this book is the discussion of intimacy in the digital age.
Not only sort of how we are intimate with each other, but
also like how close we feel to people that we don't know.
So I was wondering sort of how it plays into your book.
>> Yeah, I mean, like I have that sort of dynamic in my first book,
Emergency Contact, where two people fall in love over text,
and Permanent Record too.
It's like it's a long distance situation and
there are a lot of different modalities of intimacy that use technology.
And I personally love it, it's so true that everyone has this
like thing of like cat-fishing, everything is just a lie, da da da da da.
And sure, but I actually feel like when I am unencumbered with like my meat suit,
and like my social anxiety,
that there can be this like intimacy that feels very truthful.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And I love how like especially like any sort of like,
neuro-atypical people who might be too overwhelmed by different like social cues,
like I think that texting and things like that are such a boon.
And actually, some of my closest friends are pen pals.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And what that means is that we just have end to end encryption on WhatsApp,
and we leave these like very like logarithmic like, your innermost thoughts,
like voice memos to each other.
And that feels really close, and I do think that there is this
paradigm that people are like that's false intimacy.
Or how can you really feel that way unless like you're seeing your own light
refracted back in the light of the sheen of the their eyes, and all this stuff.
And like sure that I just don't find that to be necessarily honest and
truthful to how we experience closeness now.
>> Mm-hm, so let's like sort of flip this a little bit,
there's sort of like this rise and depression with like FOMO.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And you have Leah, you love her on the page, but you also can sort of feel like
her issues with social media, and how she feels she can't really be her true self,
and do fans love her or the idea of her.
So can you sort of talk about how you wrote her story into this?
>> Yeah, so we stay in Pablo's headspace, and
I really was very deliberate about that.
Because I thought, there's so
many dynamics of masculinity that I wanted to tackle, too.
Just with the power dynamic that these two have, and the power disparity,
specifically.
But Leah is a real person as well, and like she really does struggle
with like the title flow, like at one point a picture of her and cornrows goes
viral from when she was a child, and like that, obviously would be a huge issue.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And that ruins certain aspects of her album release, and so there is,
as huge as she is, I did want to sort of illustrate how fallible she was,
also based on like the capricious of her fans.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And like fan armies love to turn on people.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And like there is no fan army member who is more ardent than someone
who turns on you cuz they really feel like they do know you, and
they feel explicitly disappointed by you.
>> So one of my favorite quotes is intimacy is this shit,
like I just [LAUGH] I think it's very prevalent even just like in your own work.
So for those of you don't know, Mary has a podcast called, Hey,
Cool Life!, it's really nice, >> It's so good.
>> [LAUGH] >> It's like so calmy.
>> Yeah.
>> You're really honest about your struggles and trials, and
just sort of being a creative and especially in the public eye.
So how do you maintain intimacy as a public figure?
>> Well, first of all thank you so much for calling me a public figure.
[LAUGH] No, I mean it's really real so I actually have two podcasts, one is Hey,
Cool Job!, and it's about different careers.
And then the flip side of that, Hey, Cool Life!,
is like the cost of doing business and the cost of doing creative work.
And how humiliating it is to create something like a multi-hundred
page book that's so unsolicited.
I do feel a lot of embarrassment when I look around at the world,
and I'm just like, but I made something up because the news is just so depressing and
so hardcore.
I struggle a lot, like a lot of authors are introverts.
>> Mm-hm.
>> The whole deal was that we get to write in our underpants-
>> Mm-hm.
[LAUGH] >> That's the deal,
I thought we agreed to this.
>> [LAUGH] >> And so anytime I'm actually on the road
and publicizing it, and looking at people who have read my work, it just It's a lot.
And the way I deal with that,
which is hugely privileged is that I have a therapist.
And I also go to group support meetings for my various addictions.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And I go to those three times a week.
So I'm in therapy like dead ass like four hours a week, which is a huge luxury and
not something that everyone has but I have such terrible social anxiety.
I am so like, the types of addictions I have,
like creates this like scarcity mentality, specifically I have an eating disorder.
And so there's not enough for me anywhere, and
there's I don't feel safe 100% of the time.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And so, yeah, a lot of my work is just coming to terms with creating
art in that context like I feel like artists are incredibly sensitive.
And I think that our observational skills are huge boon and
the cost often time is this anxiety.
>> Mm-hm. >> So I don't deal with it well.
[LAUGH] But I do deal with it, and that's been really, really nice.
It's been so wonderful and such a gift not to blot everything
out with using substances >> Yeah.
>> And getting into weird headspace is where I get so self obsessed.
And yeah, I mean actually, to the point of the podcast,
you figure out where you're at, and you figure out what you're thinking, and
you're figuring out how you feel about what you're thinking.
And so that podcast kind of excavates some of that for me.
>> Most definitely.
>> Yeah.
>> I was gonna say that I'm listening to you work things out during the podcast.
And it's so helpful for so many people to sort of kind of like have that
realization, and sort of do the same thing themselves is sort of kind of seeing it
through you, which is so intimate and beautiful.
>> And it's again, that shame component, you can either feel away and feel shameful
about it, and it becomes your secret- >> Yeah.
>> And your secret becomes corrosive.
>> Yeah.
>> Or you can be like, hi,
I have the coping skills of an eight-year-old which is very true for me.
And I feel in danger, all the time.
>> [LAUGH] >> And then,
other people are like, my God, me too, this is what I do.
>> Yeah.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And I think that there's a difference between that and being, sort of,
didactic in the way that like other generations of self-help have emerged.
Words like this is what you need to do to be, this is who you are,
this is what you have to do every morning, and this.
>> And that too, it's like such an optimized thing, right?
Where it's like, it's so capitalistic.
>> It's turbo.
>> Yeah, the jig is that it's always prescriptive,
self-help is always prescriptive.
It's like buy this thing,
do this thing, [SOUND] like you can purchase your way to feeling better.
But like for me, the core conceit of addiction is taking something from
the outside and trying to apply it to something that you're feeling inside.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And so I think it's a kind of like evil the way capitalism creates this need or
like identifies this need, I mean, you used to be about creating need me like,
is your teeth white enough?
And now it's just like, so you're anxious?
Well like, I'll diagnose you, you'll get this.
And I think that, it makes me really sad to think that someone is struggling and
just buying these little talismans that are junk.
>> Yeah.
>> It's a wellness industrial complex, it's real.
>> It's so powerful.
>> Yeah.
>> And CBD's a scam, sorry.
[LAUGH] >> Well, thank you so much for coming,
that was very intimate.
>> [LAUGH] >> And CBD is a scam.
>> [LAUGH] >> So
if you haven't bought Permanent Record yet,
I don't know what you're doing, go buy it.
>> Make sure to like our videos, make sure to comment, tell us what you think.
Make sure to follow us at- >> Belletrist, B-E-L-L-E-T-R-I-S-T.
>> And Epic Reads.
>> On the next episode, we're gonna talk more about Permanent Record with Mary.
>> Thanks, yeah.
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