WE INTRODUCE YOU TO A LONGTIME PARTNER IN McKENZIE CALLED
PETER WALKER.
PETER WALKER. MANAGEMENT IN McKENZIE ARE
EAGER TO FAWN OVER THE
GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT. McKENZIE’S SENIOR PARTNER
PETER WALKER CAME OFF LIKE
SMITTEN TEENAGER.
SMITTEN TEENAGER. "WHAT I DISCOVERED IN CHINA WAS,
THE PEOPLE WERE HAPPY.
WE WERE PROUD TO COME IF THEY
WERE ENERGIZED.
WERE ENERGIZED. THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS I MET
GENUINELY WANTED TO DO THE RIGHT
THING FOR THE PEOPLE.
WELL, AS IT TURNED OUT THIS WAS
JUST A TASTE OF WALKER’S
EFFUSIVE PRAISE FOR THE CHINESE
GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT. HERE’S MORE.
HERE’S MORE. >> I THINK THE CHINESE PEOPLE
HAVE REALIZED THAT ANYTIME THEY
ARE UPSET BY WHAT HAPPENS
WHETHER IT’S AN EARTHQUAKE OR
STARS OR WHAT’S GOING ON WITH
THE PRICE OF PORK, I THINK THAT
PEOPLE SPEAK OUT LOUD AND CLEAR
AND I THINK THE GOVERNMENT IS
LARGELY RESPONSIVE.
LARGELY RESPONSIVE. BUT TO ME THAT’S JUST PART OF A
SYSTEM WHERE THEY DEFINE
DEMOCRACY AS A RESPONSIVE TO THE
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. AND I THINK THEY TEND TO DO THAT
REASONABLY WELL.
REASONABLY WELL. >> Tucker: WALKER SAYS HE’S
VISITED CHINA 80 TIMES OVER THE
COURSE OF HIS LONG CAREER.
IT’S CALLED POWERFUL, DIFFERENT,
AND EQUAL.
AND EQUAL. CHINESE SUB STATE PROPAGANDA
AUTHORITIES HAVE PLATE PRAISE
WALKER’S BOOK IS HELPFUL TO
THEIR CAUSE.
THEIR CAUSE. AFTER WE AIRED LAST NIGHT’S
SEGMENT, PETER WALKER CONTACTED
OUR OFFICE HERE AND ASK FOR THE
CHANCE TO COME ONTO THE SHOW AND
RESPOND TO WHAT WE SAID AND WE
ARE GLAD HE DID.
PETER WALKER JOINS US TONIGHT.
MR. WALKER, THANK YOU SO MUCH
FOR COMING ON.
I WANT TO START WITH THE
PANDEMIC BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT WE
WERE TALKING ABOUT IN THE FIRST
PLACE.
PLACE. AND I’M TELLING YOU -- I’M
QUOTING YOU HERE.
WE WERE PRAISING CHINA’S
RESPONSE AND I SAID, WHEN PEOPLE
LOOK BACK AT WHAT WAS DONE WITH
THE MAGNITUDE OF THE QUARANTINE
IN CHINA, THEY ARE GOING TO GET
HIGH PRAISE.
HIGH PRAISE. CREDIBLE REPORTS SUGGEST THAT
CHINESE AUTHORITIES LOCKED
PEOPLE IN THEIR APARTMENTS AND
LEFT THEM TO DIE.
WE KNOW THEY SNATCHED PEOPLE OFF
THE STREET AND THREW THEM INTO
POLICE VANS AND THAT’S WHERE
THEY WENT.
THEY WENT. THAT’S A QUARANTINE THAT YOU
THINK THEY DESERVE HIGH PRAISE
FOR.
FOR. WHY?
WHY? >> I THINK TUCKER IF YOU JUST
LOOK AT THE RESULTS, THERE WILL
ALWAYS BE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT
THE NUMBERS ARE BUT I THINK THE
HARSH ACTION THAT THEY TOOK
GIVEN THE SCALE OF CHINA AND A
NUMBER OF BIG CITIES WAS EXACTLY
WHAT THEY NEEDED TO DO TO BE
ABLE TO PREVENT THE OUTBREAK
FROM GOING ANY FURTHER.
THE REALITY IS THAT OUTBREAK
HASN’T GONE MUCH BEYOND WUHAN.
THEIR LACK OF DISCLOSURE AND
LACK OF TRANSPARENCY, THEY
SHOULD BE FAULTED FOR THAT AND
ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT.
>> Tucker: OKAY.
WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE
FAMILIES OF THOSE WHO DIED,
STARVE TO DEATH ALONE IN THEIR
APARTMENTS ARE PEOPLE WONDERING
WHERE THEIR RELATIVES WENT AFTER
THEY WERE BUNDLED INTO CHINESE
POLICE VANS.
POLICE VANS. HOW WOULD YOU SQUARE THEIR GRIEF
WITH THE PRAISE THAT YOU JUST
HEAPED ON THE QUARANTINE?
>> AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU
JUST HAVE TO LOOK AT THE TOTAL
PICTURE.
PICTURE. IT’S LIKE WHEN CUOMO GETS ON
EVERY NIGHT AND TRUMP GETS ON
EVERY NIGHT.
EVERY NIGHT. EVERYONE’S HEART GOES OUT TO
EVERY INDIVIDUAL THAT DIED AND
THAT’S PART OF THE SUFFERING
THAT COMES WITH THE DISEASE.
IT’S HEARTBREAKING, EVERY SINGLE
ONE OF THEM IS.
BUT THEY HAD TO DO IT OTHERWISE,
IF YOU CAN IMAGINE THE SCALE OF
CHINA, IF THAT BLEW OUT IN LARGE
NUMBERS TO OTHER CITIES THE
NUMBERS WILL BE OFF THE CHARTS.
>> Tucker: WUHAN WHERE IT
BEGAN IS ROUGHLY THE SIZE OF THE
NEW YORK METRO AREA.
GIVEN THAT YOU ARE PRAISING
THEIR RESPONSE, IS THERE
ANYTHING YOU ARE LOCKING INTO
NEW YORK?
NEW YORK? >> I THINK WE GOT A LATE START.
IN CHINA GOT A LATE START, TOO.
BUT THE U.S. GOT A LATE START
AND WAS ALSO MORE UNPREPARED
WHEN IT COMES TO HAVING THE KIND
OF PEOPLE, THE STAFF, THE HEALTH
WORKERS, THE EQUIPMENT THAT WAS
REQUIRED TO, THE PPE AND ALL OF
THAT.
THAT. >> Tucker: FOR SURE, I THINK
THAT’S RIGHT.
THAT’S RIGHT. BUT IF WE HAD STARTED EARLIER DO
YOU THINK IT WOULD BE WISE TO
LOCK PEOPLE IN APARTMENTS UNTIL
THEY DIE?
THEY DIE? >> LOOK, THERE ARE A LOT OF
THINGS ABOUT IT THAT I DON’T
LIKE AND THOSE SPECIFIC ACTIONS
WERE I THINK OVERLY HARSH,
INSENSITIVE.
INSENSITIVE. AND CHINA BEARS THE BRUNT OF
THAT, THEY ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR
THAT AND I TOTALLY AGREE.
>> Tucker: OKAY.
SO YOU SAID YOU DON’T LIKE SOME
OF THE THINGS CHINA HAS DONE.
I WANT TO GO TO SOMETHING YOU
SAID TO COME THIS IS FROM YOUR
WEBSITE, THAT YOU DO LIKE.
YOU ARE ASKED ABOUT THE UIGHURS,
I’M SURE YOU’VE BEEN ASKED MANY
TIMES.
TIMES. YOU ARE CONTRASTED CONTRASTING U
EXAMPLE YOU MENTIONED THE
WEAKNESS, AND DRAMATIC
IMPROVEMENTS IN THE UIGHURS
QUALITY OF LIFE AND THAT WOULD
INCLUDE THE LAST 50 YEARS
INCLUDING A SHARP REDUCTION IN
ISLAMIC TERRORIST INCIDENTS.
THAT’S WHAT CHINA GOT OUT OF
PUTTING IN?
PUTTING IN? IT SOUNDS LIKE IT WAS A FAIR
TRADE-OFF.
TRADE-OFF. >> NO I DON’T.
I UNDERSTAND THAT FOR THE
GOVERNMENT’S POINT OF VIEW,
CLAMPING DOWN ON ISLAMIC
TERRORISM WAS A HIGH PRIORITY.
THEY ARE FANATICS ABOUT
STABILITY.
STABILITY. DO I AGREE THAT LOCKING DOWN A
MILLION PEOPLE IN AN INTERNMENT
CAMP IS A SMART WAY TO DEAL WITH
ISLAMIC TERRORISM?
ISLAMIC TERRORISM? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
ABSOLUTELY NOT. SO --
SO -- >> Tucker: MAY I ASK, WHY
WOULD YOU KNOW THAT THEIR
LITERACY HAD INCREASED?
I GUESS -- >> THAT’S AN
IMPORTANT POINT.
IMPORTANT POINT. ONE OF THE THINGS AND
RESEARCHING MY BOOK WHICH BECAME
VERY CLEAR TO ME, THE CHINESE
PEOPLE, I SAID YOU HAVE A LOT OF
THINGS GOING, WHY ARE YOU DOING
THE THINGS THE WAY YOU DO?
ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DISCOVER
ABOUT THE CHINESE SOCIETY, IT’S
A COLLECTIVE SOCIETY IS SO VERY
DIFFERENT FROM THE
INDIVIDUALISTIC SOCIETY OF THE
U.S.
U.S. SO IN CHINA, LITERALLY THE WAY
THEY WOULD LOOK AT IT IS THERE
WERE PROBABLY 80 MILLION PEOPLE
WHERE THEY LIVE.
WE LOCKED UP 1 MILLION MEN SO
79 MILLION PEOPLE ARE MATERIALLY
BETTER OFF IN TERMS OF THE
QUALITY OF LIFE, STANDARD OF
LIVING AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
IT WAS ONLY ABOUT 1.5% THAT WE
LOCKED UP AND THAT’S HOW WE
THINK ABOUT IT.
DO I AGREE WITH THAT?
NO.
NO. I DON’T AGREE WITH IT.
THAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
COLLECTIVISM AND COMMON GOOD IS
A HUGE DISCONNECT WITH THE U.S.
WE REGARD AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN
PROUD OF EVERY HUMAN LIFE IS
SACRED AND THEREFORE ANY
UNJUSTICE OR INJUSTICE IS
SOMETHING WE OUGHT TO BE RAILING
AGAINST AND THEY ARE JUST NOT
WIRED THAT WAY.
>> Tucker: SURE.
DO YOU THINK IT’S A GENETIC
QUESTION WHEN YOU SAID THEY ARE
NOT WIRED THAT WAY?
>> KNOW IT REALLY GOES BACK TO
CONFUCIAN VALUES.
CONFUCIAN VALUES. I KNOW THERE’S BEEN A LOT OF
NEGATIVE PRESS ON CONFUCIAN
INSTITUTES BUT IF YOU JUST GO
BACK TO CONFUCIAN VALUES, ONE OF
THE THINGS YOU WILL LEARN HIS
FAMILY FIRST, SOCIETY SECOND.
INDIVIDUAL WAY DOWN THE
TOTEM POLE AND THE INDIVIDUAL’S
ROLE IS SELF IMPROVEMENT THROUGH
EDUCATION TO BETTER SERVE FAMILY
AND SOCIETY.
AND SOCIETY. SO WHENEVER YOU TALK TO THE
CHINESE ABOUT, HOW IS THE
COUNTRY DOING, THEY ALWAYS GO
BACK TO THE BROAD BASE OF
MAXIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE OUT OF
POVERTY AND EDUCATION.
>> Tucker: I BET THEY DO.
THAT’S A PRETTY HANDY WAY TO
EXCUSE PUTTING A MILLION PEOPLE
IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP.
I WONDER THOUGH, AND I KNOW THIS
IS HARD, THIS IS A PROBLEM IN MY
LIFE, IT’S HARD TO HEAR MYSELF
SOMETIMES WHEN I SPEAK.
BUT LISTENING TO YOU IT SOUNDS
LIKE A PURE APOLOGY FOR FASCIST
BEHAVIOR.
BEHAVIOR. >> WELL LET ME GO BACK TO WHAT I
SAID BEFORE.
SAID BEFORE. DO I AGREE WITH PUTTING A
MILLION PEOPLE IN AN INTERNMENT
CAMPS, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
IN THE U.S. WENT THROUGH THIS,
TOO.
TOO. >> Tucker: WILL ACTUALLY --
WELL LET ME ASK YOU THE OBVIOUS
QUESTION BECAUSE I DON’T THINK
ANYONE WOULD DO THIS FOR FREE.
HOW MUCH MONEY HAVE YOU MADE
OVER THE COURSE OF YOUR LONG
CAREER WITH McKENZIE IN CHINA,
JUST A ROUGH ESTIMATE OUT THERE,
IT MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO
UNDERSTAND.
UNDERSTAND. >> YEAH, LOOK.
I’M NOT -- I PROBABLY SPENT A
QUARTER OF MY TIME IN CHINA OVER
THE COURSE OF ROUGHLY A DOZEN
YEARS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
AND SO YOU KNOW -- >> Tucker:
I GUESS THE POINT I’M MAKING,
THIS COUNTRY IN PART AT THE
URGING OF MACKENZIE IS NOW
ECONOMICALLY TIED TO CHINA.
YOU HAVE TO WONDER IF THE VALUES
YOU DESCRIBE WHICH ARE
REPULSIVE, I THINK MOST
INDIVIDUALS WOULD AGREE WITH
THAT, I WONDER IF THAT’S HURTING
OUR COUNTRY.
OUR COUNTRY. WHY WOULD WE WANT TO BE ALIGNED
WITH THE GOVERNMENT THAT
GROTESQUE?
GROTESQUE? IS THAT A FAIR QUESTION?
>> I’M A REAL PRAGMATIST.
SO WE AS A COUNTRY MADE A REAL
MISTAKE IN NOT PROTECTING OUR
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. NOW THE COW IS OUT OF THE BARN
AND THE REALITY IS, THE CHINESE
MOMENTUM BEHIND THEIR ECONOMY IS
VERY STRONG.
VERY STRONG. AND CONTAINMENT IS TOO LITTLE,
TOO LATE.
TOO LATE. SO AS A PRAGMATIST I BASICALLY
SAY IF CHINA AND THE U.S. GOT
TOGETHER ON THE NEXT CORONAVIRUS
OR GOT TOGETHER ON THE PARIS
ACCORD OR WHATEVER THE ISSUE IS,
THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER
PLACE.
PLACE. >> Tucker: PERHAPS YOU ARE
RIGHT BUT TO DISMISS OUR PRESENT
CONCERNS AS TOO FAR GONE TO FIX
IS A LITTLE BIT LIKE SETTING A
FIRE AND THEN NOT CALLING THE
FIRE DEPARTMENT BECAUSE THE
BUILDING IS A TOTAL LOSS.
I MEAN McKENZIE IS ONE OF THE
REASONS THAT WE DON’T MAKE
PHARMACEUTICALS OR MASTS OR A
LOT OF MACHINE TOOLS OR A
MILLION OTHER THINGS IN THIS
COUNTRY, BECAUSE YOU ALL ADVISED
AMERICAN COMPANIES TO OFFSHORE
PRODUCTION.
PRODUCTION. SO DO YOU REGRET THAT ADVICE
THAT YOU GAVE TO AMERICAN
COMPANIES?
COMPANIES? >> LOOK.
>> LOOK. I THINK WE ARE IN A DIFFERENT
WORLD NOW IN TERMS OF BEING MUCH
CLEARER ABOUT WHAT REALLY
ESSENTIAL GOODS ARE OR NOT.
I THINK IN THE SPIRIT OF WHAT
McKENZIE IS ADVISING, I THINK
EVERYBODY WAS IN FAVOR OF FREE
TRADE IN THE SENSE OF, LET EVERY
COUNTRY DO WHAT THEY DO WELL.
IF YOU CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF
CHEAP, TALENTED LABOR IN CHINA
WHICH IS NOT SO CHEAP ANYMORE,
IT WAS KIND OF SOMETHING THAT
IMPROVED THE OVERALL ECONOMIC
WELL-BEING GLOBALLY.
WELL-BEING GLOBALLY. AND THE ECONOMIST SAY THAT.
I THINK NOW THAT WE ARE
REALIZING THE DEPENDENCY IS, HOW
MANY AMERICANS WOULD HAVE
IMAGINED THAT MOST OF THE
INGREDIENTS FOR PHARMACEUTICALS
CAME FROM CHINA AND YOU’RE
VULNERABLE.
VULNERABLE. >> Tucker: DID YOU THINK ABOUT
IT AT THE TIME BECAUSE YOU
HAD -- FOR SURE, AND THAT’S WHY
WE ARE GRATEFUL YOU ARE ON
BECAUSE A LOT OF US HAVE BEEN
AWAKENED TO THAT’S.
MOST OF US HAD A FRONT ROW SEAT
BUT WERE BLISSFULLY UNAWARE.
DID IT EVER OCCUR TO YOU THAT
MAYBE WE SHOULD MAKE SOME
ANTIBIOTICS IN THE
UNITED STATES?
UNITED STATES? IS IT UNWISE AS AN AMERICAN TO
ABET THE OFF SHORING OF
PHARMACEUTICALS?
PHARMACEUTICALS? >> WE CAN ALWAYS LOOK BACK AND
SAY, I KNOW THAT AT THAT POINT
IN TIME THE ECONOMIC MODEL WHICH
WAS BOTH DEMOCRATIC AND
REPUBLICAN WAS MAXIMUM ECONOMIC
GOOD FOR EVERYBODY AND I DON’T
THINK PEOPLE REALLY PAID
ATTENTION TO, WHAT ARE THE
RISKS, WHAT ARE THE SECOND-ORDER
CONSEQUENCES.
CONSEQUENCES. AND FRANKLY ONE OF THE WAKE-UP
CALLS COMING OUT OF THIS VIRUS
ARE GOING TO BE, PEOPLE ARE
GOING TO SIT DOWN AND SAY WHAT
ARE WE WILLING TO GIVE UP IN
TERMS OF ECONOMIC EFFICIENCY, IN
EXCHANGE FOR SECURITY?
AND THAT WILL BE IMPORTANT
DECISIONS.
DECISIONS. >> Tucker: I THINK THAT’S
ACTUALLY TRUE.
ACTUALLY TRUE. SO LET ME END ON THIS.
YOU SPENT 46 YEARS AT
McKENZIE, YOU’VE WRITTEN ABOUT
IT AND OFFICIALLY HAD A CHANCE
TO THINK DEEPLY ABOUT IT.
DO YOU REGRET PARTICIPATING IN
ANY OF THESE TRENDS, THE ONES
THAT YOU SAY WE SHOULD RETHINK?
>> YOU KNOW THE VAST MAJORITY OF
MY WORK-RELATED TO CHINA WAS FOR
CHINESE COMPANIES.
CHINESE COMPANIES. AND FRANKLY, THEY WERE DOING THE
SAME THING.
SAME THING. MY WORLD WAS A WORLD OF
INSURANCE SO I HELPED CHINESE
INSURANCE COMPANIES JUST DO THE
BASIC THINGS.
BASIC THINGS. SO IT WAS GET POLICIES THAT
PROVIDE BETTER PROTECTION FOR
CONSUMERS.
CONSUMERS. COMMUNICATE MORE CLEARLY SO
PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE
PRODUCTS ARE.
PRODUCTS ARE. BE SMART ABOUT HOW YOU PRICE IT.
CUT YOUR COSTS WHEN YOU CAN.
SO I REALLY WASN’T INVOLVED IN
THE U.S.-CHINA LINK DIRECTLY.
BUT IF MY McKENZIE BUDDIES
WERE HERE TODAY I THINK THEY
WOULD SAY, AS I HAVE, THAT FREE
TRADE WAS SO THE DOMINANT MANTRA
OF THE TIME THAT ANYTHING THAT
COULD BE DONE TO FOSTER THAT AND
MAKE ANYTHING ANYWHERE WAS
PRETTY MUCH UNQUESTIONED.
AND LIKE I SAID WITH THIS VIRUS,
WE WILL REVISIT THAT.
YOU KNOW, I DON’T AGREE THAT
THERE IS GOING TO BE A HUGE
INCREASE OF MANUFACTURING JOBS
BACK HERE BECAUSE WHAT’S GOING
TO HAPPEN IS A LOT OF THE SUPPLY
CHAINS WILL GO TO THE
PHILIPPINES, THAILAND, VIETNAM.
SO THE COUNTRY IS GOING TO HAVE
TO SAY, WE ARE GOING TO BE
WILLING TO PAY AN EXTRA PERCENT
FOR PHARMACEUTICALS TO HAVE
MAXIMUM SAFETY AND I THINK
THAT’S A VERY FAIR QUESTION AND
FAIR TRADE-OFF.
FAIR TRADE-OFF. >> Tucker: SO NO REGRETS.