>>> It's been 500 days since
Russia invaded Ukraine in a war
many thought would end in a
matter of weeks.
During that time, Ukrainian
officials said at least 494
children have been killed with
more than 1000 others injured.
Earlier today, president
zelenskyy posted a video of
himself visiting snake island,
which became a symbol of
Ukrainian resistance in the
earliest days of the war.
Ukrainian soldiers famously
defied and ordered the Russian
worshipers are under the
island.
Zelenskyy voiced his gratitude
for everyone who fought to
defend it, calling it a place
of victory that will never be
conquered.
Meanwhile, zelenskyy's
government is thinking the U.S.
For president the Biden's
decision to provide Ukraine
with cluster bombs despite some
international objections.
Ukraine's defense minister
insists they will only be used
in nonurban areas and that
careful records will be kept of
where they are deployed for de-
mining purposes later.
Biden's decision on cluster
bombs comes days after he spoke
with fellow nato leaders in
Lithuania.
Is any further delay in
accepting Ukraine into the
alliance will only cause more
Russian aggression.
Among those signing the letter,
retired colonel Alexander
penman, who joins me now.
Great to see you, sir.
We will talk about cluster
munitions in a moment, but nato
membership for Ukraine, do you
see that happening?
Your open letter says they need
a speedy path.
Of course, what is your sense
of it?
>> Unfortunately, I am -- I am
going to be skeptical that we
make any bold moves that this
Vilnius nato summit.
I think we are missing a
historic opportunity to invite
Ukraine into nato.
It is one of the most powerful
militaries in the world, and
would be an enormous addition
to nato.
More important within its
contribution to nato long-term,
and nato security, is the fact
that this is a country which is
at war with Russia. Russia
believes that as long as this
war continues it maintains a
veto over nato's membership.
So this means we are setting up
Russia continued to interfere,
continue to wage war in Ukraine
in an effort to block a
session.
If the U.S. Were able to
provide an aggressive roadmap,
if not by the next nato summit,
that would pretty much kill
Putin's hopes of being able to
wage war indefinitely.
I think this would be a bold
move with little risk, but I
don't -- I fear that we are in
a situation where the risks are
too high right now.
>> We are watching that issue
right now. In the meantime,
president Biden approved
sending cluster munitions to
Ukraine as a part of a new
military aid package.
As you know, and the president
acknowledged this, it is a
controversial decision.
These weapons contain multiple
explosions released over an
area the size of several
football fields but you can
have unexploded bomblets in
these munitions.
What is your sense of it,
colonel, is this a good idea?
>> I think the president is
taking heat from some corners,
Progressive wings in particular
are taking a very principled
approach.
He is likely to take some heat
from elements of nato, also,
that have the leisure to take
these kinds of principled
approaches.
From a practical standpoint,
the president of the right
thing and to support his
decision.
It was the righteous thing to do
. The fact that these systems
are essential to Ukraine in
these battles for liberating
territory and helping when the
war quickly.
I met with probably almost a
dozen Ukrainian ministers on
our trip there, we just got
back yesterday, and de-mining
these kinds of munitions are at
the forefront of their minds.
Russia has been using these
weapons systems with impunity,
with a huge amount of
unexploded ordinance. Ukraine
is going to be very mindful,
they will take response ability
for their territory.
They are going to be careful
with them, but they see it as
essential in being able to
liberate territory and destroy
the Russian army.
This is all about being able to
attack the Russian army at its
heart, break its ability to
continue to wage war in
Ukraine, and with that, helped
usher in the conclusion of the
war.
In a lot of ways, it seems
counterintuitive, but it is
frankly one of the most humane
things they could do in order
-- instead of having this war
run indefinitely, have a sharp
punctuated conclusion to this
war. It is a humane approach for
the occupied population, the
soldiers sacrificing their
lives, and all of us assuming
enormous amounts of risk
engaging in this or in Ukraine.
>> Let me ask you this, though,
to press you a little bit, just
last year, then white house
press secretary Jen saki was
asked about possible use of
cluster bombs against Ukraine
and here is what she had to say
in response to that question.
>> There are reports of illegal
cluster bombs and vacuum bombs
being used. If that is true,
what is the next step of this
administration, and is there a
redline for how much violence
will be tolerated against
civilians in this manner, which
is illegal, and potentially a
war crime?
>> It would be.
I don't have confirmation of
that.
We have seen the reports.
If that were true it would
potentially be a war crime.
>> What do you think of that,
colonel?
She seemed to say that if it
could be confirmed, that
Russia's use of those kinds of
munitions might constitute a
war crime.
The Biden administration is
talking about sending Ukraine
the same kinds of weapons so
they can be used by Ukrainians.
What is your sense of that and
what is your response to that?
Does it sound like, perhaps,
the Biden administration is
reversing itself on whether or
not this constitutes a war
crime?
>> I don't think they are.
I think the fact is that the
U.S. Is not signatory to the
prohibitions on the use of
cluster munitions.
We did that intentionally,
because we forecast the need
for the ability to use these
kinds of weapons in a near peer
fight for the United States but
Ukraine is also not a
signatory.
What Jen was referring to is
that cluster missions were used
by population centers, that is
by any kind of measure a war
crime.
This will be used against
military targets.
I would like to live in a world
where we do not have to use
cluster munitions.
We have templated the fact that
we want to dispense with
nuclear weapons, just recently
in the past couple of days, the
U.S. Announced it had
eliminated its chemical weapons
stockpile.
Eventually, we will get there.
It is the right thing to do, to
infect civilians.
This is not a kind of criteria
for these types of systems.
If Ukraine is responsible it
can use these things with good
stewardship. In its fight to
liberate territory.
Taking this argument forward,
to see if we could address some
of these cluster munitions,
because they affect civilian
populations, but that is not
something that we have the
luxury to debate from the
standpoint at the moment.
>> Might incentivize the
Russians to use these munitions
even more, that the U.S. Is
handing over these munitions,
why can't we use them?
Might you find yourself in a
situation like that?
>> I think in this case, Russia
is not constrained by any norms
whatsoever.
They blew up a . There is
evidence they might surprise --
blow up a nuclear power plant.
They are not constrained in any
way.
The only thing they do not use
Riner's weapons of mass
destruction because the U.S.
What has warned this would be
an enormous escalation which
would warrant an unprecedented
response.
Russia has received the same
warnings from China, recently.
So, anything they think they
can get away with they will
employ.
But it will do is it will
provide Ukrainians with some
critical weapons systems.
These are going to be fire from
a cannon, a 155 millimeter
cannon to relatively precise
targets.
Even though they can spread
over a large area, the
Ukrainians can identify the
areas they are deployed, the
dead rates for U.S. Munitions,
these are improved, with dead
rates somewhere around 2% or
lower. That is a pretty
reasonable number, when you
think about the Russians being
able to use their cluster
munitions with dead rates of
40%.
So, less Russian cluster