INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST JOHN SWEENEY IS ALL TOO FAMILIAR
WITH PUTIN'S TACTICS AND IS OUT WITH A NEW BOOK ON THE RUSSIAN
LEADER CALLED KILLER IN THE KREMLIN.
HE JOINS ME NOW. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, JOHN.
THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME WE ARE TALKING ABOUT POTENTIAL
CATASTROPHE AT THE ZAPORIZHZHIA POWER PLANT.
A FEW MONTHS AGO, THERE HAD BEEN SHELLING AROUND THE PLANT
AS WELL AND THE I EAT -- IAEA HAD BEEN SOUNDING ALARMS
AS WELL. WHY DO YOU THINK RUSSIA
CONTINUES TO MAKE SUCH DANGEROUS STEPS THAT COULD NOT
ONLY IMPACT UKRAINE, OBVIOUSLY, BUT EUROPE AT LARGE?
>> YOU'VE GONE -- GOT TO UNDERSTAND, BIANNA, THAT
VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS BEEN, AS A TEENAGER, SOMETHING WHEN HE WAS
LIKE 12, HE FOUND A MENTOR WHO CHANGED HIS LIFE.
THIS MENTOR WAS A GANGSTER. WHEN HE RAN A MIXED MARTIAL
ARTS CLUB, WHICH PUTIN WENT TO IN ST. PETERSBURG.
AND WHEN THIS MENTOR DIED, ON HIS GRAVESTONE THE PHRASE WAS,
I AM DEAD BUT THE MATTER IS A MORTAL.
WHEN DEALING WITH THE CRIME BOSS OF THE GAMBIAN O FAMILY,
OR SOMEBODY LIKE THIS, AND WHAT HE LIKES TO DO, AND THIS IS
ABSOLUTELY PART OF HIS PLAYBOOK, IS TO THREATEN TERRIFYING
VIOLENCE. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT EUROPE
AND THE WHOLE WORLD IS AFRAID OF IS SOME CORN OF NUCLEAR
DISASTER. SO I THINK WHAT IS HAPPENING IN
REALITY IS THAT THE RUSSIANS AND THE RUSSIAN ARMY, THE
RUSSIAN KILLING MACHINE, IS FAILING.
IT'S NOT DOING VERY WELL. THEY REVERSED OUT OF THE BATTLE
OF KYIV, THEY LOST THAT. THEN THEY WENT TO THE EAST AND
GOT THE LUGANSK REGION, THAT'S TRUE, BUT IT COST AN AWFUL LOT
OF RUSSIAN BLOOD AND PRESSURE. THEY HAVE NOT YET SECURED THE
DONETSK OBLAST IN ITS ENTIRETY. AND YET --
THE CRANIUM HAVE MADE THEM FIGHT VERY, VERY HARD FOR THAT.
BUT THEN, THE AMERICAN LONG-RANGE ROCKET LAUNCHER, A
HIGH MARKS SYSTEM, I THINK HAS CHANGED THE GAME AND HAS
BLASTED THESE 12 MAJOR RUSSIAN AMMO DUMPS.
SO WHAT I THINK WE ARE LOOKING AT IS PUTIN TRYING TO FRIGHTEN
THE WORLD AND EUROPE BY SAYING WE CAN SHELL THESE PLACES.
NOW PRACTICALLY, THESE NUCLEAR POWER STATIONS ARE VERY, VERY
STRONGLY BUILT. I KNOW ABOUT CHERNOBYL, YES,
I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT IN MY BOOK, BUT THAT WAS A MASSIVE INTERNAL
DISASTER, BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL DESIGN OF THE REACTOR WAS WRONG,
AND THE SOVIETS KNOW ABOUT IT, AND THEY SUPPRESSED IT RATHER
THAN TACKLING IT. THAT IS A PROBLEM WITH THIS
KIND OF SYSTEM. >> ANY SYSTEM, I WOULD IMAGINE,
WOULD NOT BE BUILT TO SUSTAIN CONTINUED ROCKET ATTACKS.
NO ONE WOULD IMAGINE THAT THERE WOULD BE A WAR ENSUING WHERE
YOU HAVE RUSSIAN TROOPS, NOT ONLY INFILTRATE THE FACILITY,
BUT ALSO IT APPEARS NOW FOCUSING ON, STRATEGICALLY AT
LEAST AS YOU ARE SAYING, TO GARNER THE THREAT TOWARDS THE
REST OF THE WORLD, ATTEMPTS TO SABOTAGE NUCLEAR FACILITY.
>> YES, BUT WHAT HE'S DOING IS TRYING TO GENERATE FEAR.
THAT IS HIS PLAYBOOK. DO NOT MESS WITH ME.
AS I SAY, OR YOU WILL SUFFER. >> IS IT WORKING?
>> WELL, I THINK THE UKRAINIAN ARMY BEG TO DIFFER.
THE UKRAINIAN ARMY AND THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WE
KNOW WHO YOU ARE, WE KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LIKE, AND WE ARE
STANDING UP TO YOU. OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS KIND OF
WARNING, BUT THERE'S A NUMBER OF REASONS SET OUT IN MY BOOK
THAT I THINK VLADIMIR PUTIN IS A FRAGILE MONSTER, AND I DON'T
THINK THAT HIS STRATEGY IS WORKING.
I THINK IT'S A CATASTROPHIC MISTAKE FOR HUMANITY, FOR
UKRAINE, FOR RUSSIA, BUT ALSO FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN'S GRIP ON
POWER. LET ME TAKE YOU THROUGH SOME OF
THOSE REASONS. FIRST OF WHICH IS ALEXEI
NAVALNY, WHO'S THE EFFECTIVE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION.
HE'S LOCKED UP. HE'S A GREAT CRITIC OF PUTIN.
HE'S A GREAT CRITIC OF THE WAR. AND YET, HE IS STILL ALIVE.
VLADIMIR PUTIN COULD KILL HIM LIKE THAT, BUT WHY NOT?
BECAUSE VLADIMIR PUTIN IS AFRAID OF HAVING HIM KILLED IN
PRISON. BECAUSE HE FEARS THAT PEOPLE IN
MOSCOW AND ST. PETERSBURG WILL RISE UP AND SAY, WHAT ARE YOU
DOING? >> CAN I JUST PUSH BACK ON THAT?
>> YES. >> EVEN NAVALNY'S OWN TEAM HAD
SAID, AS SOON AS THIS WAR BEGAN, THAT NAVALNY'S LIFE WAS AT HIS
GREATEST RISK YET SINCE BEING ARRESTED ONCE RETURNING TO
RUSSIA. IF THERE WAS EVER A TIME FOR
HIM TO BE KILLED IN PRISON, IT WOULD BE THEN.
THEY ALSO DID NOT BELIEVE THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN WOULD GO THIS
FAR AND INVADE UKRAINE. AND THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, WHEN
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE ON THE STREETS OF MOSCOW
AND LENINGRAD REVOLTING, IN OUTRAGE, YES THEY CAME OUT IN
SUPPORT FOR HIM WHEN HE CAME BACK TO RUSSIA, BUT WE DON'T
SEE THAT MANY PEOPLE ON THE STREETS THERE.
WE KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF SUPPRESSION, BUT WE DON'T SEE
THAT MANY PEOPLE EVEN AT THE HEIGHT OF THEIR PROTEST AGAINST
THE KREMLIN. >> THE POINT IS, NAVALNY IS
STILL ALIVE. SO PUTIN, IF HE WAS ALL
POWERFUL, HE COULD HAVE HIM, YOU KNOW, HE'S HIS GREAT
ADVERSARY, NAVALNY, AND HE STILL LIVE.
THAT TO ME SUGGESTS WEAKNESS, NOT STRENGTH.
SECONDLY, HE HASN'T CALLED FOR UNIVERSAL CONSCRIPTION.
AGAIN, THE REASON FOR THAT IS HE IS AFRAID THAT PEOPLE IN
MOSCOW AND ST. PETERSBURG WILL SAY, WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU
SENDING MY 18-YEAR-OLD SON FOR YOUR STUPID WAR?
AND SO, TIME AND AGAIN I'VE SEEN THIS, ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF
BUCHA IN EARLY APRIL, THE RUSSIAN SOLDIERS WE SAW WERE
NOT ETHNIC RUSSIANS. THERE WERE RUSSIAN MONGOLS.
>> ETHNIC MINORITIES, RIGHT. >> YES, EXACTLY.
SO HE'S NOT USING, SO WHY IS THAT?
THE REASON, AGAIN I THINK, IS BECAUSE HE'S AFRAID, BECAUSE IF
HE CALLS FOR UNIVERSAL CONSCRIPTION, MOMS AND DADS AND
MOSCOW AND ST. PETERSBURG WILL SAY, WE WILL PROTEST AGAINST
YOU. WE DON'T WANT OUR SONS TO GO TO
WAR. AND THERE IS A SERIES OF THINGS
LIKE THIS. I ALSO THINK THAT IF, FOR
EXAMPLE, PUTIN HITS THE NUCLEAR BUTTON, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT
PUTIN WILL WORK, BECAUSE I THINK THE KREMLIN MACHINERY
DOESN'T LIKE THIS WAR, AND IS UNHAPPY WITH IT.
WE ALSO HEAR THE GOSSIP, THE CIA HAVE SAID TO THE RUSSIANS,
IF YOU USE A TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPON IN UKRAINE, THINGS WILL
NOT GO WELL FOR YOU. WHAT THEY SPECIFICALLY SAID IS,
WE WILL TARGET RUSSIAN MILITARY PLACES WITH MASSES OF
CONVENTIONAL CRUISE MISSILES IN A WAY THAT WILL HUMILIATE PUTIN
AND THE RUSSIAN KILLING MACHINE WITHOUT ESCALATING TO NUCLEAR.
SO, WE ARE IN A GAME OF THREATS WITH SOMEBODY, WHO I SAY IN MY
BOOK, IS NOT JUST A KILLER, HE'S A SERIAL KILLER.
HE'S PATHOLOGICALLY ENTHRALL TO VIOLENCE AND TO THREATS, AND HE
THREATENS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
AND IF WE GIVE HIM WHAT HE WANTS, HE WILL ONLY ASK FOR
MORE. AND I THINK WHAT WE ARE LOOKING
AT HERE WITH THE NUCLEAR STORY, YES IT'S ALARMING, BUT AT THE
SAME TIME IT'S PART OF HIS PLAYBOOK.
AND THE BEST WAY TO SEE THE END OF THIS WAR IS TO GIVE THE
UKRAINIAN ARMY AND UKRAINIAN PEOPLE THE MONEY AND THE HEAVY
METAL THEY NEED TO DEFEAT THE RUSSIAN KILLING MACHINE.
>> IT IS THE WAR, IN YOUR OPINION, NOW AT AN INFLECTION
POINT AS WE SEE CONTINUED FIGHTING THERE?
OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE SEEING RUSSIAN OUT REGROUP IN THE EAST
AND SENT SOME OF THEIR TROOPS TO THE SOUTH THERE, AS UKRAINE
IS TRYING TO RECLAIM SOME OF THAT TERRITORY THAT RUSSIA HAS
TAKEN, SPECIFICALLY AROUND KHERSON.
THERE HAVE BEEN ANALYSTS THAT SAY PERHAPS NOW WITH THE HIGH
MARS AND THE ADDITIONAL SUPPORT, BOTH FINANCIALLY AND MILITARILY
FROM THE UNITED STATES, THAT THIS LARGELY IS IN AN
INFLECTION POINT, A TURNING POINT, FOR THE UKRAINIANS.
DO YOU AGREE? >> I THINK THERE WILL BE ONE
SOON, BUT I ALSO THINK THE AMERICANS ARE SUPPLYING
UKRAINIANS WITH THE AMMUNITION AND BIG LONG GUNS.
THE PRICE OF THAT IS THE AMERICANS ARE SAYING TO
UKRAINIANS, PLEASE DO AS WE ASK YOU TO DO.
THE UKRAINIANS ARE COMPLYING, PARTLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO
CHOICE, BUT THE AMERICAN POLICY ON THIS IS SOFTLY, SOFTLY.
WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO, I MEAN, I THINK THE OTHER DAY
THEY ANNOUNCED A BILLION DOLLARS IN DEFENSE AID, BUT
NORMALLY IT'S LESS THAN THAT. 700 MILLION.
THEY ARE SAYING TO THE UKRAINIANS, YOU CAN'T HAVE OUR
BEST JETS, OUR BEST TANKS, OUR BEST ARMORED PERSONNEL
CARRIERS. THAT IS A DELIBERATE POLICY.
WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO IS TO PREVENT PUTIN FROM SEEING
ONE SINGLE PIECE OF AID OR KIT AS SOMETHING THAT WHICH WILL
ALLOW HIM TO ESCALATE TO A NEW THRESHOLD OF VIOLENCE.
THAT'S A DELIBERATE AMERICAN POLICY IF YOU STUDY IT.
I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH IT, I JUST THINK THE FASTER YOU
DESTROYED THE RUSSIAN KILLING MACHINE, THE FASTER PUTIN WILL
BE IN TROUBLE, AND THEN WE CAN HOPE THERE IS A NEW RUSSIA AND
SOMEONE FAR BETTER. LET'S HOPE SO, BUT THE
AMERICANS POLICY IS CONSISTENT, AND I THINK, SMART.
SO WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS MAKING IT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.
WHAT IT IS IS THEY ARE BOILING THE RUSSIAN FROG SLOWLY.
THEY ARE NOT DUMPING THE FROG IN THE HEAT.
THEY ARE SLOWLY TURNING UP THE HEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
AT SOME POINT, THE UKRAINIANS WILL GET KHERSON.
I THINK THEY WILL GET IT BACK AND THEN MOVE TO THE EAST AND
MOVE SOUTH. I SAY THIS BECAUSE I KNOW MY
UKRAINIAN FRIENDS, THEIR SPIRIT IS SO HIGH.
THEIR MORALE IS SO HIGH COMPARED TO THE RUSSIANS.
>> WELL, THERE'S ANOTHER MISCALCULATION AS WE CLOSE HERE
ON VLADIMIR PUTIN'S PART AS WELL.
HE THOUGHT HE WOULD GET GIVE IN THREE DAYS AND HERE WE ARE SIX
MONTHS LATER. >> YEAH.
SO THE LONGER THE WAR, THE WORSE IT IS FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN.
HE'S A FRAGILE MONSTER. >> WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE IT
THERE, JOHN SWEENEY. THANK YOU SO MUCH, WE
APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.