Brad: Hey everyone, this is part two of our discussion with Ronald Mincy.
It picks up right where we left off in part one.
Welcome back.
So we've, kind of...we go beyond just looking at, sort of, trends in economic success and
trends in poverty in this report to investigate what are the factors that are associated with
greater success for black men in America.
And one of the things that we, kind of, investigated, sort of, how, you know, conventional factors
and much research today, things like education, work, contact with the criminal justice system,
are linked to black men success.
What is the story that we find in the report on those factors?
Ronald: Well, you know, I think that we find that the critical factors involved in building
and displaying human capital are very important for entering the middle and upper class.
So the role of higher education is critical.
The work experience is critical.
And particularly, you know, we've had a long discussion over the past two decades about
the separation of the earnings distribution between people who have higher education and
people who don't.
And so, military service is also a critical factor, particularly for this particular cohort
of African American men because when they were entering adulthood, the proportion of
African American men who are going to college was very small and so military service provided,
sort of, an alternative route to entering the middle class for many.
And so I think those three factors associated work, education, and military service associated
with gaining human capital and getting, sort of, an advanced position in their subsequent
attempts for employment.
Those are critical factors for African American men.
And I think they tell us some things about how we ought to be paying more attention to
make sure that young African American men today are not only getting into college, but
completing college.
And so, that encourages and directs some of the work that we're trying to undertake even
now.
Brad: So I think one of the interesting things about the report is the way in which we find
that military service, in particular, is linked to better outcomes for black men, you know,
in mid-life, and the way in which in particular both marriage and work mediate that relationship.
So we find obviously, that the black men that served the military married at higher rates,
you know, later on in life and they worked at higher rates later on in life, you know,
beyond their military service.
What do you think is it about the U.S. military that seems to foster perhaps a strong work
orientation and also a strong orientation towards marriage?
In fact, one study suggests that the U.S. military is the one institution in America
where there is no racial divide in marriage rates.
Just striking.
What do you think's going on with the military there.
Ronald: Well, I know, for one thing, military service will introduce lots of African American
men into an entirely different culture that, you know, differs from their own background
in lots of ways.
I remember when my own older brother served in the military during the Vietnam era, and
many things about that experience, I recall him coming home on his first leave and all
the things I learned about that were completely new to me as a consequence of his exposure
to lots of whites in the military where they were, in some ways, shoulder to shoulder and
they had to deal with, you know, lots of discrimination and the like.
But, he rubbed shoulders with young white men at the time and the things that they were
doing became normalized for his experience.
And I think, the role of marriage, the way in which the military supports marriage and
it has to understand the importance of strong marriages in order to enable soldiers to survive
and function.
I think that that culture in the military is something that men ,generally, and African
American in particular, men, begin to embrace and repeat and I think it's a good thing for
them.
So I think that's part of what goes on.
In addition, I think the military is also a place in which African American men acquire
a access to training and skills that they could barely get anywhere else and where they
will leave with not only skills, specialized skills in certain areas, but employer preferences
that are a consequence of their military service.
So in a lot of ways, and that facilitates marriage on the one hand, and the stability
of marriage after the fact.
And so...
Brad: Sure.
So there's a kind of signaling device going for two.
Ronald: It's operating, you know, before, during, and after in terms of sustaining marriages,
which are obviously a critical key to entering the middle class if for no other reason that
you have two incomes.
So I think, this is an important...it has been an important tool in the experience of
African Americans making the transition from poverty to the middle class.
And I think we have to figure out, what are some alternative ways in which we can, sort
of, acquire those same experiences and reinforce the things that facilitate economic success
for black men.
Brad: One of the things that comes out in the report is just the fact that for black
men, being married is strongly associated with higher family income, you know, in one's
50s.
And, I think what people don't always realize there too is that black wives are much more
likely to be employed than other wives are in America.
So when black men are getting married, when they're staying married, it has a big impact
on the family income because the women in their lives are much more likely to be in
the labor force.
What's the story there, do you think?
Ronald: Well, I think particularly for this cohort, I mean, for this cohort, it was much
more true that earlier in their dual careers, African American women are as likely to be
in the labor force as their husbands.
And in many cases, I recall writing a paper a couple of decades ago, the earnings of African
American women, wives, eclipsed those of many of their husbands.
So, when you pair two incomes in those incomes, it's much like what's happening in the general
population when, you know, college...the Association between college and marital status has increased
in the United States.
And it is also true that people with higher educational attainment are more likely to
marry.
And so.
in the same way that that's contributing to any quality generally in the population, it
is absolutely in the cohort that we focused on contributing to higher economic status
among African American men who've married.
They had two incomes into their household and their wives were not only more likely
to work, but to work at higher wages than other women.
And so, it's a ticket into the middle class and one that I think is important.
Brad: The final thing that we find in terms of, kind of, a factor that's linked at least
to greater successful black men is a sense of personal agency.
So black men who, sort of, thought of themselves as, kind of, captains of their own lives,
who didn't, sort of, think that they were, kind of, just subject to fade or to their
environment are more likely to be flourishing.
And what was striking to me in looking at the models and, sort of, how this variable
was, what we call, kind of ,robust even after controlling for things like their education,
their military service, their religiosity, their marital statuses.
So, above and beyond those other factors, having a strong sense of being, you know,
in control of your own life as a young man was linked to them be more successful in their
50s.
So this is a pretty interesting association across the years.
What do you think is going on there and then what lessons should we draw from that for,
kind of, engaging young black men today?
Ronald: Well, so in some ways, my thinking around this, I don't know why, is more influenced
by the idea that when you have a strong sense of personal agency, you can recover from failure.
You are likely to conclude as a consequence of some unsuccessful experience that, I can
learn from this, I can regroup and I can learn how to do better the next time.
And so, you know, some of the most successful entrepreneurs are people who failed in business
many times because they had a sense that they could learn from their past and regroup and
correct in the future.
The thing I worry about this finding is, sort of, what does it really mean because I know
that these non-cognitive skills, it's not clear what their origin is.
It's not clear that they are, for example, highly associated with family background because
you can have two siblings within the same family who score differently on these measures.
And so, I think it's an important question, but how to produce it is unclear.
But I certainly think, efforts to engage young African American men in experiences where
they try things, they fail, they learn to regroup and move on is an important part of,
sort of, the youth development that has to occur.
And it sort of reminds me in some ways of this book that I wrote in the 1990s about
nurturing young black males and what youth-serving organizations can do to foster positive youth
development.
And it's just...I'm sort of in some ways coming full circle as a result of this report and
I'm grateful for the opportunity.
Brad: So, just two more questions here.
Ronald: Sure.
brad: One is, what are some of the policy takeaways do you think coming from this report,
what can we do to increase, in a sense, the number of black men who are on these avenues
towards the middle and upper class, you know?
What...yeah.
What are some things that policymakers can do?
Ronald: Well, so one thing we haven't talked about which I found striking and I'm still
noodling on it is.
While coming from an advantaged background was a strong predictor of entering the middle
class or higher, coming from a disadvantaged background was not a significant predictor
of being poor as a man.
And I think this is very, very important because among the phrases in the negative narrative
is the intergenerational transition of poverty that black people in general and young black
men in particular who are born into poor families are doomed to enter poverty themselves and
our results just do not support that.
And so then the question is, what are the variety of things that policy can do to help
insulate the children and boys, in particular, who are born into poor families to ensure
that they escape that fate themselves?
And I think among those things have to do with early childhood education and the things
that, you know... I am an economist by training, but I'm increasing...but I work in the school
of social work, and so I'm sort of drawn near like a moth to the flame to these discussions
about the traumatic experiences that children in poverty experienced when they're young
and the consequences they have for children as they mature.
So I want to think of something very simple and straightforward.
So when you transition from elementary school to junior high school, you have to learn that
you're not only taking your classes and your homework assignments in the same room from
the same teacher, but you go to junior high school and you have to go to different classes
and get accustomed to instructions of different kinds of teachers.
Well, that takes a certain amount of executive functioning which is compromised by the trauma
that one might experience in a household in which there is poverty, there's lack of food,
there may be lots of domestic violence.
You're born into a single parent household, which is the case for most African American
children.
And so, dealing with these factors that caused trauma and stress among mothers and trauma
and stress among young children, we can do more in terms of public policy to ensure that
just the very brain architecture of children is to protect that so that they have the capacity
to educate themselves well and then enter college.
And so then we have more work to do because we have closed much of the gap between a high
school graduation among African American boys and girls and among blacks, between blacks
and whites.
But while we're admitting more black and boys of color to college, they're not graduating.
And so I think we can do more.
This is one of the things, for example, that the executive alliance is working on.
We can do more to try to figure out what is holding African American and other boys of
color from graduating and what specialized interventions do they need in order to help
them succeed in that area.
So, and then I think the other big one that comes out of our study is on the downside.
That having any kind of contact with the criminal justice system prevents you from entering
the middle class and virtually assures that you will enter poverty.
And therefore, this whole discussion of mass incarceration, the inequity in the administration
of criminal justice is definitely something that is part of the negative narrative and
we need to stay on that and repair it, so that more African American men can follow,
you know, follow the route of success that is documented in our report.
Brad: And then finally, what, you know...
If you're, kind of, sort of, thinking about the cultural takeaways for, you know, for
teachers in high schools, for parents in communities for, you know, for the Black Church and for
the media as well.
What sort of...what are the takeaways at, sort of, the more cultural level from our
report?
Ronald: Well, I think for the sake of time, it seems to me that the most important one
is the message to the church.
You know, government cannot do everything and churches are places where our report suggests
that boys who attended...African American boys who had regular church or religious attendance
were more likely to enter the middle or upper classes when they became adults.
And so, my hope is that our report will encourage and embolden the things that are already occurring
in African American churches to train up a child in the way he should go.
I also think that we had an interesting trick question or question at us yesterday and it
was about...I'm trying to paraphrase the question.
What do you think is behind the association between church attendance as a youth and their
performance in the middle class?
And our answer is did the standard socially acceptable thing about church attendance,
sort of, reinforces cultural norms that are associated with moving into the middle class
and so forth?
But I also think, "No."
That African American boys and girls who go to church also hear the word of God, and they
hear it in ways that promote exactly the kinds of behaviors that are moving them into the
middle class.
For example, you know, they hear things and they are taught in Sunday school, "Children,
obey your parents as in the Lord.
Honor Your father and mother, which is the first commandment with a promise so that it
will be well with you and you will live long on the earth."
One of the things that he's saying is, pay attention to the guidance of your parents
throughout your life course because they will help direct you in ways that protect you and
keep you out of things that will, for example, expose you to the criminal justice system.
They hear things like, you know, was is it bad company corrupts good morals.
One of the most important challenges that African American parents have to deliver for
your kids is, be careful who your friends are.
All right, because you may not be into a lot of things, but your friends may be, and if
you travel around with them, if you're caught in the car with someone who is drinking or
whatever it is, you expose yourself to this kind of risk.
And so these kinds of messages, which are, let's face it, unpopular in our society, are
the things that go on in the church and therefore my hope is...
I know I, called, a young man who was a former student of mine in the school of social work
who is now a pastor of the church.
And I sent him the report and said, "Listen, go forth and do good things in the ministry
that you have to men and boys.
Make sure to emphasize these things because they're going to be critical in the lives
of the young people that you're working with."
So my hope is that they will be emboldened and other institutions as well will not be
afraid...
There is also...what is it?
You know, the message, "An excellent wife," right?
Proverbs 23.
These young men hear these things in church and as they grow older, they begin to screen
the young women that they're in relationship with.
And I think that's important as young people begin to choose partners and begin to think
about the kinds of women that they will marry as opposed to date.
These are very important messages that stick with them and those are messages that are
learned in the church.
And I also hope that it will encourage many African American parents to move against the
stream that is encouraging them to lighten up on your children and to move away from
the things that were part of their upbringing, and to return to those things because our
report documents that for our cohort of young black men who, 20 years ago, we thought to
be an endangered species.
These things help them make it into the middle class.
Brad: Great Ronald, thank you very much.
Ronald: Thank you.
Brad: Hey everyone.
That's the end of our discussion with Ronald.
Mincy.
Thanks for watching.
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