AS EVERYBODY HAS THEIR EYES ON THE UNIVERSITY
OF PENNSYLVANIA, THERE'S A NEW
CHORUS OF VOICES CALLING FOR THE
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA'S
PRESIDENT TO STEP DOWN.
JOINING THAT CHORUS, THE BOARD
OF ADVISERS AT UPENN'S WHARTON
BUSINESS SCHOOL.
AND JOHN HUNTSMAN, PART OF THE
SIGNIFICANT BACKLASH TO HER
CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY THIS
WEEK, AS WELL AS FROM THE
PRESIDENTS OF HARVARD AND M.I.T.
ON THE SUBJECT OF ANTI-SEMITISM
ON CAMPUS.
>> MS. MAGILL AT PENN, DOES
CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS
VIOLATE PENN'S RULES OR CODE OF
CONDUCT, YES OR NO?
>> IF THE SPEECH TURNS INTO
CONDUCT IT CAN BE HARASSMENT,
YES.
>> I AM ASKING SPECIFICALLY
CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF
JEWS, DOES THAT CONSTITUTE
HARASSMENT?
>> IF IT IS DIRECTED AND SEVERE
OR PERVASIVE IT IS HARASSMENT.
>> SO THE ANSWER IS YES?
>> IT IS A CONTEXT-DEPENDENT
DECISION.
>> THE UNIVERSITY RELEASED A
CLARIFICATION MESSAGE FROM
MAGILL THE DAY AFTER THE
HEARING.
LISTEN.
>> IN THAT MOMENT I WAS FOCUSED
ON OUR UNIVERSITY'S
LONG-STANDING POLICIES ALIGNED
WITH THE U.S. CONSTITUTION WHICH
SAY THAT SPEECH ALONE IS NOT
PUNISHABLE.
I WAS NOT FOCUSED ON, BUT I
SHOULD HAVE BEEN, THE
IRREFUTABLE FACT THAT A CALL FOR
GENOCIDE OF JEWISH PEOPLE IS A
CALL FOR SOME OF THE MOST
TERRIBLE VIOLENCE HUMAN BEINGS
CAN PERPETRATE.
>> JOINING US NOW IS THE
PRESIDENT OF WESLEYAN
UNIVERSITY, MICHAEL ROTH.
PRESIDENT ROTH, WE APPRECIATE
YOU COMING IN.
>> YES, THE ANSWER IS YES.
>> WOULD THAT -- THAT
ACTUALLY -- YOUR SCHOOL HAS HAD
A VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE WITH
SOME OF THESE UNIVERSITIES, WANT
TO GET INTO WHY IN A MOMENT.
TO START WITH, AS A UNIVERSITY
PRESIDENT IF YOU'RE IN THAT
CHAIR, WHAT ARE YOU ANSWERING
THERE?
>> YES, OF COURSE IT'S A
VIOLATION OF OUR RULES.
>> WHY DIDN'T THEY?
>> I THINK THAT BY THIS TIME,
AND THE HEARING, AND I'D WATCHED
ONLY SOME OF IT, DIDN'T WATCH
ALL FOUR HOURS BUT BY THIS TIME
IN THE HEARING THE SEGUE WAS
FROM, IF SOMEBODY YELLS
INTIFADA, THE END OF THE
OCCUPATION, AND THEN IT BECAME
IF SOMEONE CALLS FOR THE
GENOCIDE OF JEWS.
THAT WAS A LINE OF CONGRESSWOMAN
STEFANIK WHO HAS A LONG HISTORY
OF PROMOTING WHITE NATIONALISM,
NO FRIEND OF ANTI-SEMIMITES BUT
THEY WERE GOING DOWN THIS SLOPE,
WHAT COULD YOU SAY?
IF SOMEBODY SAYS I WANT ALL Y
JEWISH PEOPLE DEAD, OR ALL BLACK
PEOPLE, OR ARMENIANS.
IT'S OBVIOUS THAT CREATES AN
ENVIRONMENT THAT'S NOT SAFE
ENOUGH TO LEARN IN.
WE HAVE TO RESPECT FREE SPEECH
AND ALMOST ALL THE TIME THAT'S
OUR DEFAULT POSITION.
BUT SOMETIMES IT LEADS TO IN
INTIMIDATION AND VIOLENCE.
>> YOU'RE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE
LINE THAT THERE IS IN THE FIRST
AMENDMENT, THE FIRST AMENDMENT
IS NOT WITHOUT LIMIT.
AND SHE WAS -- EVEN IN THE
CLARIFICATION THERE, POINTING TO
THAT, THE FIRST AMENDMENT, BUT
IT'S INCITING VIOLENCE, THAT IS
THE LINE WHERE IT IS NOT
ACCEPTED.
>> THAT'S RIGHT, AND OVER THE
LAST SEVERAL YEARS, IN MANY
COMMENTATORS HAVE POINTED OUT,
PEOPLE AT COLLEGES AND
UNIVERSITIES HAVE SAID SOMETHING
IS VIOLENT WHEN IT'S REALLY JUST
OFFENSIVE.
AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE SAY
YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO
BE OFFENDED.
SO, ON MY CAMPUS THERE ARE
PEOPLE SAYING, ROTH, YOU SUPPORT
GENOCIDE BECAUSE WE SUPPORT THE
RIGHT OF ISRAEL TO DEFEND
ITSELF.
NOW, I'M OFFENDED BY THEM SAYING
I SUPPORT GENOCIDE.
I THINK THEY'RE WRONG.
BUT I CAN'T -- I WON'T TRY TO
CENSOR THAT.
IF THEY SAID I'M IN FAVOR OF
GENOCIDE, I HAVE NEVER HEARD
ANYONE SAY THAT ON ANY CAMPUS,
THEN WE WOULD TAKE DISCIPLINARY
ACTION AGAINST THEM.
>> YOU MAKE AN IMPORTANT POINT.
IT'S NOT HAPPENING IN ISOLATION,
NOT HAPPENING JUST BECAUSE OF
OCTOBER 7th.
WHAT UNIVERSITIES HAVE DONE, AND
THEIR POSTURE ON SPECIFIC
LANGUAGE AND HOW PEOPLE HAVE
SPOKEN AND ACTED IN THE YEARS
LEADING UP TO NOW, CREATED THIS
MOMENT.
IS THAT A FAIR ASSESSMENT?
>> YEAH, I THINK THERE'S -- IT'S
NOT JUST THE UNIVERSITIES.
I MEAN, I -- MY STUDENTS HAVE
SAID TO ME, I DON'T FEEL SAFE ON
CAMPUS, MUSLIM STUDENTS SAY THAT
BECAUSE EVERYONE THINKS I'M A
TERRORIST.
JEWISH STUDENTS FEEL SAFE.
I'M SORRY YOU FEEL THAT WAY BUT
I THINK YOU'RE SAFER HERE ON OUR
CAMPUS.
THERE IS ANTI-SEMITISM, NOT JUST
ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, WE WALK OUT
HERE IN NEW YORK CITY, THERE'S
ANTI-SEMITISM.
OF COURSE, AS A JEW, I KNOW
THAT.
ON CAMPUS, MY JOB IS TO MAKE
SURE IT'S SAFE ENOUGH SO PEOPLE
CAN LEARN, DESPITE PREJUDICES
OTHER PEOPLE MAY HAVE.
AT MOST COLLEGES AND
UNIVERSITIES THE ONES I KNOW
BEST, THAT SPIRIT OF OPENNESS
AND WANTING TO LEARN FROM PEOPLE
WITH DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW IS
REALLY THERE, THERE'S ALSO
OCCASIONALLY, AND THIS IS
PROBABLY WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING
TO, THERE'S TENDENCY TOWARDS
PAROCHIALISM.
I CAN'T LISTEN TO YOU BECAUSE
YOU DON'T BELONG TO MY IDENTITY
GROUP.
THERE'S SOME OF THAT.
AS TEACHERS WE FIGHT AGAINST
THAT.
>> YOU WROTE AN INTERESTING
PIECE A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, THE
HEADLINE IS MY STUDENTS WANTED
TO TALK ISRAEL-PALESTINE, HERE'S
WHAT WE DID INSTEAD.
WHAT DID YOU DO?
>> SO WE -- THIS IS A GREAT
BOOKS COURSE, IT'S CALLED THE
MODERN AND THE POST-MODERN, THAT
WEEK WE WERE READING
CIVILIZATION AND DISCONTENTS.
THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY NORMALLY
JUMP INTO WITH GUSTO.
BUT FREUD IS WRITING ABOUT
SCAPEGOATING AND THE TENDENCY OF
VIOLENCE TO ERUPT EVEN WHEN
THINGS LOOK LIKE THEY'VE MADE
GREAT PROGRESS AND OF COURSE IN
THE MIDDLE OF THIS CONFLICT IN
THE MIDDLE EAST THESE QUESTIONS
OF SCAPEGOATING, OF MEETING AN
ENEMY YOU DEMONIZE, IT WAS ON
EVERYONE'S MIND.
BUT INSTEAD OF JUST SAYING MY
OPINION ABOUT ISRAEL IS "X," OR
MY OPINION ABOUT PALESTINE IS
"Y," WE WERE GOING THROUGH A
CAREFUL, NOT UNCONTROVERSIAL
BOOK, TO UNDERSTAND THESE ISSUES
MORE BROADLY.
MY JOB AS A TEACHER IS NOT TO
TRY TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO SHARE
MY VIEW ABOUT ISRAEL.
MY JOB AS A TEACHER IS TO HELP
THEM UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES
BETTER, AND THEY ALL SEEMED TO
WANT TO DO THAT.
>> DO YOU THINK THE PENDULUM
WILL SWING BACK?
NOT EVERY INSTITUTION, MORE THAN
WE REALIZE ARE HAVING THE SAME
TYPE OF DIALOGUE AND
CONVERSATION THAT YOU WOULD
EXPECT ON A UNIVERSITY CAMPUS.
BUT FOR THOSE WHERE THAT WASN'T
THE CASE, AND THIS HAS BECOME A
REAL PROBLEM IN THE LAST SEVERAL
WEEKS THAT EVERYBODY'S NOTICED,
THE PENDULUM IS GOING TO SWING
BACK THE OTHER WAY?
>> I REALLY HOPE SO.
WE HAVE TO DEFEND FREE SPEECH,
BUT WE HAVE TO HAVE SAFE ENOUGH
ENVIRONMENTS IN WHICH PEOPLE CAN
LEARN BY TALKING TO OTHER PEOPLE
WHO DON'T AGREE WITH THEM.
IN AMERICA WE'VE GOTTEN VERY
GOOD AT FINDING PEOPLE WHO AGREE
WITH US, AND HAVING
CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM.
WE HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW TO HAVE
CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE WHO
DON'T AGREE WITH US.
WE MIGHT BE WRONG.
WE MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.
AND OF COURSE THAT'S WHAT
COLLEGES SHOULD BE ABOUT.
>> THIS HAS BEEN A GREAT
>> THIS HAS BEEN A GREAT CONVERSATION.
>> YES.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
PRESIDENT MICHAEL ROTH, WESLEYAN
UNIVERSITY, APPRECIATE YOUR
TIME.
"OUT FRONT" NOW FORMER
DEMOCRATIC SENATOR AL FRANKEN.
SO MUCH I WANT TO TALK TO YOU
ABOUT.
THIS HAS BECOME A STORM.
YOU'RE A HARVARD GRADUATE.
YOU'RE ALSO JEWISH SO YOU LOOK
AT THIS FROM TWO DIFFERENT
PERSPECTIVES, VERY RELEVANT TO
WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT.
DO YOU THINK THE PRESIDENTS OF
HARVARD AND THE PRESIDENTS OF
M.I.T. AND U PENN OUGHT TO BE
FIRED?
>> I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT.
I BELIEVE IN FREE SPEECH BECAUSE
I'M A COMEDIAN, TOO, AND THAT --
BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE CALLING
FOR THE GENOCIDE OF ENTIRE
PEOPLE, I THINK THAT REQUIRES
DISCIPLINARY ACTION.
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN
THIS COUNTRY, PALESTINIANS AND
JEWS, WHO ARE AFRAID.
>> YES.
>> AND CALLING FOR GENOCIDE --
NOW ANTTI FATAH, MAYBE -- I
THINK STUDENTS AT HARVARD,
M.I.T. AND PENN --
>> MAY SEE THAT DIFFERENTLY?
>> NO.
THEY -- I THINK THEY KNOW WHAT
ANTI-FATAH IS AND THAT IS THE
KILLING OF CIVILIANS.
THEY'VE HAD SOME ANTI-FATAHs,
THAT CALLS FOR DISCIPLINARY
ACTION.
>> IT'S INTERESTING THE CONTEXT
HERE.
WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THESE
CASES.
RAF STEVENS IS A U PENN DONOR.
I'M GOING TO PULL ALL OF THE
MONEY IF YOU DON'T FIRE THE
PRESIDENT OF U PENN.
SO THAT ADDS SOMETHING ELSE IN.
DO YOU DO THAT WHEN SOMEONE WITH
A LOT OF MONEY SAYS DO IT OR
ELSE?
BASICALLY THEY'VE GOT THE GUN TO
YOUR HEAD?
>> HE PUTS HER IN A FUNNY
POSITION.
>> YEAH.
>> AND THE BOARD, TOO.
THE BOARD MEMBERS -- OTHER BOARD
MEMBERS, YEAH.
THAT PUTS HIM -- HIM SAYING THAT
PUTS THEM IN AN ODD POSITION.
>> WHO KNOWS.
IT IS TOUGH.
OKAY, DO YOU DO WHAT A BIG DONOR
WANTS TO DO?
NO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE AT THE
BIDDING OF BIG DONORS, TRY TO
CHART YOUR OWN COURSE.
>> THE DONOR COULD HAVE TOLD
OTHER PEOPLE WITHOUT ANNOUNCING
THAT. >> RIGHT.
KEPT IT PRIVATE.
>> YES, BECAUSE THEN YOU PUT
THEM IN THE POSITION OF OH, I
SEE, BIG DONORS, YOU KNOW?
>> YEAH.
>> CALL THE SHOTS THERE.
>> AND YOU DON'T WANT THAT,
RIGHT?
>> NOT WHAT'S RIGHT OR WRONG.
>> WE'RE GOING TO SEE HOW IT
PLAYS OUT.
ALL OF THESE LAYERS ARE SO
IMPORTANT.