COLLEGE AND SHE’S GOING TO ADMIT
TO THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF
POWER AND THE FACT THAT JOE
BIDEN WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT.
LET’S BRING IN DAVID IGNATIUS,
VETERAN JOURNALIST, AUTHOR,
COLUMNIST, EDITOR AT THE
WASHINGTON POST.
YOUR NAME WAS ALREADY INVOEBLGD
ONCE DURING OUR COVERAGE TODAY.
I’M CURIOUS HAVING JUST HEARD
FROM FRANK FIGLUZZI, A
RECITATION OF THE SEPARATIST
GROUPS WE’VE KNOWN AND LOVED
AROUND THE WORLD, I’M TEMPTED TO
ASK YOU WHERE THIS RANKS IN
STORIES YOU’VE COVERED IN THIS
COUNTRY BUT WHY STOP THERE. STORIES YOU’VE COVERED IN
STORIES YOU’VE COVERED IN
FOREIGN CAPITOLS, FOREIGN
GOVERNMENTS.
>> BRIAN, THIS LOOKS LIKE AN
INSURGENCY.
YOU LOOK AT THE FACES, RAGE,
LAWLESSNESS, ATTEMPT TO STRIKE
AT SYMBOLS OF POWER. THE WAY IN WHICH THE INTERNET
THE WAY IN WHICH THE INTERNET
HAS BEEN USED AS A SOURCE OF
RECRUITMENT.
THERE ARE SOME EERIE PARALLELS. I WANT TO UNDERLINE SOMETHING
I WANT TO UNDERLINE SOMETHING
FRANK SAID A FEW MOMENTS AGO.
PEOPLE WHO ARE PLANNING FOR THE
LAW ENFORCEMENT RESPONSE,
PLANNING THE POLICE PRESENCE,
PLANNING THE FBI ROLL KNEW THAT
THE CAPITOL WAS A TARGET.
THEY EXPECTED THERE WOULD BE A
MARCH DOWN PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE
FROM THE ELLIPSE AFTER THE
INITIAL GATHERING IN THE MORNING
AND THEY ASSUMED THAT THE
CAPITOL POLICE WOULD BE ABLE TO
EXPAND THEIR PERIMETER AND
PROTECT THE CAPITOL.
IT’S NOT LIKE THEY DIDN’T SEE
THIS COMING.
THEY DID.
ONE OF THE RIDLESS IS JUST ON A
BASIC TACTICAL LEVEL, WHY
WEREN’T THERE MORE COMPANYAPITOL
POLICE PRESENT?
HOW DID THEY ALLOW THIS BREACH
TO HAPPEN?
ONE OTHER POINT, THE OFFICIALS
THAT I’VE BEEN TALKING TO OVER
THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS WHO,
AGAIN, SAW THIS CRISIS COMING ON
JANUARY 6th HAVE BEEN CONCERNED
ABOUT THE DANGER DONALD TRUMP
WOULD TRY TO DRAW THE U.S.
MILITARY INTO PROTECTING HIS
PRESIDENCY, THE CHALLENGE OF THE
ELECTION RESULTS.
SOME NEW INVOCATION OF THE
INSURRECTION ACT ON HIS BEHALF
TO ADVANCE HIS CAUSE.
THEY WERE DETERMINED TO KEEP THE
MILITARY OUT OF ANY EFFORT TO
CHALLENGE THE ELECTION AND IN
THAT SENSE I THINK WE CAN BE
GLAD EVEN THOUGH THE RESPONSE
LOOKED AWFULLY TIMID THAT U.S.
MILITARY TROOPS WERE NOT
INVOLVED.
THE NATIONAL GUARD WAS NOT
VISIBLY PRESENT DURING THE
DIFFICULT MOMENTS.
THOSE IMAGES, AN AMERICAN
TIANANMEN IS WHAT THE INSURGENTS
WANTED.
THEY DEPARTMENT GET THAT.
THEY DIDN’T GET THAT MOMENT OF
MARTYRDOM THAT I THINK THEY WERE
SEEKING.
I THINK THAT’S PART OF WHAT LIES
BEHIND A RESPONSE THAT PUZZLES A
LOT OF US.
WHY WASN’T IT MORE FORCEFUL?
PEOPLE DID NOT WANT TO MILL TAR
RISE THIS.
>> DAVID, WHERE DO YOU THINK
MIKE PENCE IS?
WHO DO YOU THINK HE’S TALKING
TO?
WHO DO YOU HOPE HE’S TALKING TO?
SAME IS THE LEADERSHIP, GANG OF
FOUR, SCHUMER, McCONNELL, THEIR
POWER FLIPPED IN THE MIDST OF
THIS, PELOSI AND McCARTHY.
WHERE ARE THEY ALL?
WHAT DO YOU RECKON THEY’RE
TALKING ABOUT?
>> WELL, I THINK THEY MUST FEEL
A DEEP SENSE OF EMBARRASSMENT
THEY’VE ENABLED TRUMP AND THAT
THEY CAN SEE NOW THE COST.
THESE IMAGES TODAY I THINK HAVE
DONE MORE TO UNDERMINE THE
FUTURE OF THE TRUMP INSURGE
AGAINST SI
AGAINST SI IF ANYTHING.
PEOPLE LUCKS OUR RATING IN
SPEAKER PELOSI’S OFFICE LIKE
THEY OWN IT OR CAVORTING IN THE
SENATE CHAMBER.
PEOPLE ARE DISGUSTED BY THAT.
I THINK IF YOU’RE SPEAKER
PELOSI, YOU PROBABLY AS
EMBARRASSING AND UPSETTING AS
THIS IS, YOU FEEL THIS MOMENT
HAS BLOWN ITSELF UP IN SOME
WAYS.
McCONNELL MADE CLEAR THIS
MORNING BEFORE THE ASSAULT ON
THE CAPITOL THAT HE COULDN’T
ABIDE TRUMP’S LAWLESSNESS,
TRUMP’S DEFIANCE OF THE ELECTION
RESULT.
HE’D JUMP SHIP VISIBLY AND
PUBLICLY.
SO I THINK THE CONVERSATION, I
CAN’T GUESS WHAT PENCE IS
THINKING, BUT I THINK THE
CONVERSATION AMONG THE SENATORS
IS WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL.
THIS IS A MOVEMENT PEOPLE ARE
GOING TO LOOK AT AND SAY, THAT
DOESN’T LOOK LIKE SOMETHING I
WANT TO BE PART OF.
>> SORRY FOR THE DELAY THERE.
THIS IS RACHEL MADDOW JUMPING IN
FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
STUDIO THERE IN NEW YORK, MR.
IGNATIUS.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING
US.
I’M STRUCK BY THESE TWO REALLY
RICH LOADS OF REPORTING THAT YOU
HAVE HAD RECENTLY, ONE WHICH YOU
WERE JUST DESCRIBING THIS
DESIRE, CONCERN AMONG UPPER
REACHES OF THE MILITARY THAT THE
PRESIDENT NOT BE ALLOWED TO
EFFECTIVELY INVOKE MILITARY
FORCE TO PROTECT HIS PRESIDENCY
AND SEEING TODAY THERE BEING NO
VISIBLE USE OF THE MILITARY IN A
WAY THAT MIGHT HAVE CREATED A
MARTYRDOM MOMENT FOR THE
PROTESTORS.
ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU’VE HAD A
RICH LOAD OF REPORTING ABOUT THE
PREPARATIONS FOR TODAY’S EVENTS.
YOU REPORTED YESTERDAY, PLANNING
FOR THE PROCESS HAS BEEN
COORDINATED BY AN INNER AGENCY
TEAM, ACTING SECRETARY,
SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY,
BACKED BY THE CHAIRMAN OF THE
JOINT CHIEFS AND FROM YOUR
REPORTING I FELT VERY COMFORTED
THAT THERE WAS A LOT MORE
PLANNING THAN WE HAD EXPECTED.
AS YOU REPORTED, THAT THEY TRIED
TO STORM THE CAPITOL THEY WOULD BE ARRESTED.
BE ARRESTED.
I DO FEEL LIKE THERE’S A BIG
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAVING TANKS
IN THE STREETS AND A TIANAMEN
MOMENT OF MARTYRDOM AND BEING
ABLE TO RUN THROUGH THE CAPITOL.
WHATEVER PLANNING HAPPENED, THEY
WERE UNDER PREPARED FOR THE
AMOUNT OF VIOLENCE BROUGHT TO
BEAR AGAINST THE BUILDING.
>> I THINK YOU PUT IT EXACTLY
RIGHT, RACHEL.
I THINK THEY WERE RIGHT NOT TO
WANT TO MILL TARRIZE THIS.
THEY THOUGHT THEY HAD ADEQUATE
FORCES.
THEY THOUGHT THE 6,000, 8,000
D.C. POLICE PLUS FBI, PLUS
S.W.A.T. TEAMS, LAW ENFORCEMENT
PEOPLE FROM VARIOUS FEDERAL
AGENCIES THAT THEY WERE
GATHERING WOULD BE SUFFICIENT.
THEY PUT A LOT OF RELIANCE ON
THE CAPITOL POLICE.
I THINK AS WE LOOK BACK AT WHAT
HAPPENED THAT WAS MISPLACED.
I DO THINK YOU’RE RIGHT.
THEY WERE UNDER PREPARED.
THEY WERE SENSIBLE IN NOT
WANTING US TO LOOK LIKE A
MILITARY CONFRONTATION, BUT THE
COORDINATION, THE ABILITY TO
MOVE AS QUICKLY AS THE
PROTESTERS -- PROTESTERS, THE
INSURGENTS DID WAS LACKING.
I THINK THAT’S GOING TO BE AT
THE CENTER OF THE EXAMINATION
THAT SHOULD TAKE PLACE ABOUT
WHAT HAPPENED.
BUT, AGAIN, I THINK THE
IMPORTANCE OF THE FACT THAT THIS
MOVEMENT, THIS INSURGENCY HAS
UNDERMINED ITS CAUSE WITH
ACTIONS THAT SEEM TO REPEL EVEN
THE MOST PASSIONATE CRITICS OF
BIDEN’S ELECTION, PEOPLE PART OF
THE CHALLENGE OF THE
CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE VOTE, I THINK THAT’S
REALLY IMPORTANT.
THAT’S A BIG PART OF WHAT
HAPPENED TODAY IS THAT THIS
MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY
POPPED ITS OWN BALLOON.
>> IN TERMS OF THE PREPARATIONS
YOU WERE ABLE TO REPORT ON AND
THE THINKING OF THE PEOPLE
INVOLVED TO BRACE FOR THIS
MOMENT WHICH I THINK DID GO OFF
THE RAILS IN A WAY THAT WASN’T
ANTICIPATED, SHOULD WE EXPECT
THAT PEOPLE WHO BROKE INTO THE
CAPITOL AND BROKE THOSE WINDOWS
AND CARRIED FIREARMS INTO THE
DISTRICT AND DID ALL THESE
OTHER -- COMMITTED ALL THESE
OTHER FEDERAL CRIMES THAT WE’VE
SEEN COMMITTED TODAY ON TAPE AND
IN FILM, SHOULD WE EXPECT
THEY’LL BE PROSECUTED?
IS THAT A POLICY DECISION FOR
THE INCOMING JUSTICE DEPARTMENT?
IS THAT SOMETHING U.S. ATTORNEYS
WILL BE ALLOWED TO PURSUE?
>> WELL, IT’S THE RIGHT
QUESTION.
OBVIOUSLY IT’S A QUESTION FOR
THE NEW ADMINISTRATION, BUT I
WOULD THINK THAT LAW
ENFORCEMENT, THE FBI, THE
CAPITOL POLICE ITSELF ARE JUST
DEEPLY EMBARRASSED AND ENRAGED
AT WHAT WAS DONE TODAY AND THEY
WILL WANT TO BE AT THE FRONT OF
THOSE WANTING A PROSECUTION OF
THE PEOPLE WHO VANDALIZED --
EVADED AND VANDALIZED THE
CAPITOL.
I THINK THERE’S GOING TO BE A
MOVEMENT FROM INSIDE FROM
FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT ITSELF
DEMANDING THIS.
AGAIN, AS PEOPLE -- I’M TALKING
TO MY SOURCES TONIGHT BEFORE
COMING ON THE AIR.
WHAT I HEARD WAS WE THINK THE
RIGHT FORCE WAS IN PLACE BUT WE
CAN’T ANSWER THE QUESTION WHY IT
DIDN’T MOVE MORE QUICKLY AND
DECISIVELY IN THE KEY MOMENTS
BEFORE THE CAPITOL WAS SEIZED.
>> DAVID IGNATIUS, WASHINGTON
POST.
A FOREIGN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST AND
SO MUCH MORE.
IT’S AN HONOR TO HAVE YOU HERE.
THANK YOU.
>> THANKS, RACHEL.
>> I WOULD MENTION AS I HANDED
IT BACK OVER TO MY FRIEND NICOLE
WALLACE HERE THAT WE’VE BEEN
WONDERING SORT OF BEHIND THE
SCENES WHY SOME OF THE
PRESIDENT’S MORE INFLAMMATORY
AND INCITING TWEETS HAVE BEEN
PUT OUT.
TWITTER PUT OUT A STATEMENT THAT