>>> IT IS 29 PAST THE HOUR.
A LIVE LOOK AT THE WHITE HOUSE
AS OUR COVERAGE CONTINUES.
MORE THAN 750 PEOPLE WERE
ARRESTED DURING PROTESTS ACROSS
RUSSIA YESTERDAY.
THAT'S ACCORDING TO A HUMAN
RIGHTS GROUP.
IT HAS BEEN TRACKING ARRESTS
SINCE THE START OF THE INVASION
ALMOST THREE WEEKS AGO.
IT SAYS NEARLY 15,000 PROTESTERS
HAVE BEEN ARRESTED SINCE
FEBRUARY 24th.
THE DEMONSTRATIONS COME DESPITE
THE THREAT OF LENGTHY PRISON
SENTENCES.
EARLIER THIS MONTH THE KREMLIN
PASSED A LAW AGAINST PROTESTING
AND INDEPENDENT REPORTING ON THE
WAR WITH A PUNISHMENT OF UP TO
15 YEARS IN PRISON.
MEANWHILE, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF
RUSSIANS ARE FLEEING TO
NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES IN
RESPONSE TO PUTIN'S INVASION OF
UKRAINE.
"THE NEW YORK TIMES" SPOKE TO
SEVERAL RUSSIANS WHO HAVE LEFT
THEIR HOMES OVER THE PAST 18
DAYS.
MANY HAVE ENDED UP IN ISTANBUL,
TURKEY, RELYING ON TELEGRAM
CHATS AND SUPPORT GROUPS TO FIND
HOUSING.
"THE TIMES" SAYS THESE ARE
MIDDLE CLASS RUSSIANS WHO ARE
AGAINST THE WAR AND FEAR THE
RECENT AUTHORITARIAN MEASURES
PUT IN PLACE.
THEY BELIEVE THEIR WAY OF LIFE
IN RUSSIA IS NO LONGER POSSIBLE.
>> YOU KNOW, DAVID, WE ARE
LOOKING AT THE HORRORS THAT ARE
UNFOLDING DAILY FOR UKRAINIANS.
IT IS ALSO RUSSIANS WHO ARE
GOING -- IN THE LONG TERM, I
SUSPECT IF UKRAINE SURVIVES THIS
THERE WILL BE A REMARKABLE
MARTIAL PLAN THAT WILL BECOME A
VIBRANT COUNTRY THAT'S AN
EXAMPLE TO THE REST OF THE
WORLD.
NOT SO MUCH FOR THE RUSSIANS.
EDUCATORS ARE FLEEING,
JOURNALISTS FLEEING, SOME OF THE
BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST LEAVING
THAT COUNTRY.
WHAT DOES RUSSIA LOOK LIKE AFTER
THIS IS OVER?
>> THERE'S A REAL DANGER THAT
THIS EXPERIENCE TENDS TO HOLLOW
OUT A LOT OF THE MOST VIBRANT
PARTS OF RUSSIAN URBAN SOCIETY.
IF YOU WERE TO GO TODAY TO THE
ARMENIAN CAPITAL OR THE GEORGIAN
CAPITAL OR ISTANBUL OR ANY OTHER
PLACES, YOU WOULD SEE IT FILLED
WITH THOUSANDS OF RUSSIANS,
COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS,
JOURNALISTS, BUSINESSPEOPLE WHO
ARE TERRIFIED IF THEY DON'T GET
OUT NOW THEY WILL BE STUCK IN
RUSSIA, IN A RUSSIA THAT THEY
DON'T RECOGNIZE. REMEMBER, WHAT WE'VE HAD FOR THE
REMEMBER, WHAT WE'VE HAD FOR THE
LAST FEW DECADES IS A SEMI-FREE
MOSCOW OR ST. PETERSBURG.
THE UNDERSTANDING WAS WE KNOW WE
LIVE IN AN AUTHORITARIAN
SOCIETY, THERE'S NO MISTAKING
ABOUT THAT, WE KNOW OUR PRESS IS
REPRESSED, WE KNOW THERE ARE ALL
KINDS OF RESTRICTIONS AND THIS
GUY IS TERRIBLE, BUT ON THE
OTHER HAND THERE'S A CERTAIN
INTELLECTUAL LIFE, THERE'S A
BUSINESS LIFE, BUT ON THE OTHER
HAND THERE'S A KIND OF LIBERTY
THAT WAS TOLERABLE.
EVERYBODY KNEW THE ARRANGEMENT.
IT WAS NOT LONDON, IT WAS NOT
PARIS OR ANYTHING LIKE IT.
NOW THERE'S A CHANCE OF
SOMETHING INFINITELY MORE
REPRESSIVE, WHERE BIG BROTHER IS
LOOKING AT YOU ALL THE MORE
CAREFULLY.
THERE'S FILM COMING OUT OF
MOSCOW OF PEOPLE HOLDING UP A
BLANK PIECE OF PAPER AND GETTING
ARRESTED, PEOPLE IMITATING --
YOU SEE THIS OVER AND OVER
AGAIN.
YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT JUST NAVALNY
THAT'S IN JAIL.
THE SOCIETY IS BEING PUT UNDER
THE BOOT OF THE AUTHORITARIAN --
THE DESPOT, IF YOU WILL.
I DID AN INTERVIEW WITH STEVE
COTKIN, WHO IS A HISTORIAN OF
THE SOVIET UNION AND THE GREAT
BIOGRAPHER OF STALIN.
HE IS NOT AT ALL SAYING THIS IS
WHAT RUSSIA IS AND ALWAYS WAS
AND ALWAYS WILL BE, BUT HE IS
SAYING THAT CERTAIN
CIRCUMSTANCES ARE BEGINNING WITH
PUTIN BUT ALSO RUSSIA'S
GEOGRAPHY AND ITS HISTORICAL
REFLEXES ARE PUTTING RUSSIA IN
ITS WORST PLACE THAT WE'VE SEEN
IN DECADES.
SO PEOPLE WANT TO GET OUT OF
THIS COUNTRY IF THEY CAN.
BUT, BY THE WAY, FEW CAN.
VERY FEW CAN, HAVE THE MEANS OR
THE CAPACITY.
>> YEAH, AND I WONDER IF THIS
ALSO -- SOMETHING LIKE THIS
EXISTS IN THE RUSSIAN MILITARY
AND WHAT THE MORALE OF THE
RUSSIAN MILITARY IS GOING INTO
UKRAINE.
YOUNG BOYS BEING YELLED AT BY,
YOU KNOW, OLDER WOMEN IN UKRAINE
BUT ALSO KILLING UKRAINIANS AND
KILLING RUSSIANS WHO LIVE IN
UKRAINE.
>> WE HAVE ALL KINDS OF REPORTS,
MIKA, FROM THE FRONT LINES OF
SOLDIERS WHO HAD NO IDEA WHY
THEY WERE BEING SENT TO THE
BORDER, AND ONCE THEY FOUND
THEMSELVES IN UKRAINE AND
SOMETIMES SURRENDERED TO
UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS, PROTESTING
THEIR INNOCENCE AND SAYING THEY
WERE SORRY THAT THEY WERE THERE.
AND WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF
CELLPHONES AND PEOPLE ARE ABLE
TO CALL HOME, AND ANXIOUS
PARENTS, MOTHERS AND FATHERS ARE
ABLE TO CALL THEIR SONS ON THE
FRONT LINES.
SOONER OR LATER THIS TOO BLEEDS
INTO RUSSIAN SOCIETY.
MORE AND MORE MOTHERS AND
FATHERS FINDING ABOUT CHILDREN,
CHILDREN INSIDE UKRAINE AND
COMMITTING THIS ACT OF WAR AND
ARGUABLY THIS ACT OF GENOCIDE
AGAINST A PEOPLE TO BRING THE
UKRAINIAN PEOPLE TO ITS KNEES.
ARE THEY PROUD OF THIS?
THAT TOO WILL BLEED INTO RUSSIAN
SOCIETY DESPITE ALL OF THE
RESTRICTIONS.
THAT TOO WILL CHANGE THE
PICTURE, BUT IT TAKES TIME.
>> DAVID, I READ THAT INTERVIEW
YOU DID WITH STEVE COTKIN.
IT WAS SUPER INTERESTING.
I THOUGHT ONE OF THE POINTS THAT
HE MADE ABOUT THERE'S AN
INHERENT WEAKNESS IN THE RUSSIAN
STORY AND WHAT PUTIN HAS BEEN
TELLING RUSSIANS, AND PREVIOUS
LEADERS AS WELL, IS THAT RUSSIA
IS THE GREAT POWER.
NOT A GREAT POWER, BUT THE GREAT
POWER.
IN A SENSE THAT ASPIRATION TO BE
EQUAL TO EUROPE OR TO AMERICA IS
ALWAYS GOING TO LEAVE THEM
WANTING MORE BECAUSE THEY
AREN'T.
THEY ARE A GREAT POWER BUT THEY
DON'T HAVE THE ECONOMY OF
EUROPE, THEY DON'T HAVE THE
ECONOMY OF EUROPE AND THE UNITED
STATES CERTAINLY MATCHED
TOGETHER.
THAT DRIVES THEM PERHAPS TO
OVERREACH AND MAKE MISTAKES AS
PUTIN APPEARS TO HAVE DONE IN
UKRAINE.
>> RIGHT, KATTY.
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
STEVE WAS SAYING IN THAT
INTERVIEW FAR MORE ELOQUENTLY
THAN I COULD IS THAT
AUTHORITARIANS ARE BAD AT
EVERYTHING.
>> YEAH.
>> THEY'RE BAD AT EDUCATING
THEIR POPULATIONS.
THEY'RE BAD AT DEVELOPING AN
ECONOMY.
NOW, YOU CAN ARGUE WITH THIS,
AND I ASKED HIM THE QUESTION,
LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN
CHINA.
AN AUTHORITARIAN HAS HAD AN
EXAMPLE OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
THAT'S EXTRAORDINARY IN RECENT
DECADES IN CHINA, BUT IN THE END
AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES DO NOT
PRODUCE HAPPY CITIZENS.
SOONER OR LATER THERE ARE
REBELLIONS, AND WHAT PUTIN FEARS
MOST -- I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT
IS A RULE, BUT WHAT PUTIN FEARS
MOST IS UPRISING ON THE STREET
AND UPRISING AROUND HIM.
HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE SEEN THAT
IN THE AUTHORITARIAN EXPERIENCE
OVER TIME?
WE'VE EVEN SEEN IT IN THE
CZARIST EXPERIENCE.
PAUL I WAS STABBED TO DEATH BY HIS POLITICAL RIVALS.
HIS POLITICAL RIVALS.
BREZHNEV'S TEAM IN THE POLITBURO
WAS OVERTHROWN.
THIS IS WHAT PUTIN FEARS.
THESE ARE NOT HISTORICAL LAWS IN
AN IRON CLAD WAY, BUT PUTIN HAS
NOT COME THROUGH FOR HIS
SOCIETY.
PUTIN, LET'S TALK ABOUT HIM.
ECONOMICALLY, HE HAS NOT.
>> YEAH.
ALL RIGHT.
EDITOR OF "THE NEW YORKER" DAVID
REMNICK.
AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>> MIKA, FOLLOWING UP ON WHAT
DAVID AN KATTYD KATTY WERE SAYIN
AGAIN, GOING BACK TO WHAT YOUR
FATHER WOULD WRITE THROUGHOUT
THE COLD WAR -- AGAIN, IT IS
IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT EXPLAINS
NOT ONLY WHAT WAS GOING ON 40
YEARS AGO, IT EXPLAINS WHAT IS
GOING ON RIGHT NOW.
YOUR FATHER WROTE REPEATEDLY
THAT RUSSIA WAS A
ONE-DIMENSIONAL POWER.
THAT THEY HAD FAILED TO DEVELOP
ECONOMIC CAPACITY.
THEY HAD FAILED TO DEVELOP
TECHNOLOGY.
THEY HAD FAILED TO DEVELOP A
POLITICAL SYSTEM THAT OTHER
COUNTRIES WANTED EXPORTED.
THEY HAD FAILED CULTURALLY.
THEY HAD FAILED IN EVERY
DIMENSION.
SO THEIR ONLY POWER WAS THE
POWER TO DISRUPT.
NOT THE POWER TO EXPAND, BUT THE
POWER TO DISRUPT THE EXISTING
GLOBAL ORDER.
THEY WOULD DO THAT, AND EVEN
THAT PART YOUR FATHER SAID IN
1983 WAS LIMITED BECAUSE IT
DEPENDED ON MILITARY, BRUTE
FORCE WITH THE MILITARY AND
NUCLEAR WEAPONS, WHICH ALSO EVEN
LIMITED THAT SINGLE DIMENSION.
SO KATTY IS SO RIGHT.
THEIR INSECURITY AND THEIR
EXPANSIONISM HAVE ALWAYS
COLLIDED TOGETHER, AND IT HAS
CAUSED THEM TO MAKE MISTAKE
AFTER MISTAKE AFTER MISTAKE.
HISTORY HAS REPEATED ITSELF
HERE.
>> WELL, WE HAVE BEEN PULLING
ALL OF HIS BOOKS OFF THE SHELVES
AND READING AND HIGHLIGHTING
THEM.