"THINKING LIKE A TERRORIST." WITH A BIG WELCOME TO YOU,
MICHAEL. >> THANK YOU.
>> DURING YOUR TIME WITH THE FBI, I KNOW YOU WENT UNDERCOVER
WITH A COUPLE DIFFERENT WHITE NATIONALISTS GROUP.
KNOWING THAT TERRAIN, AS YOU DO, WERE YOU SURPRISED BY ANYTHING
YOU SAW IN CHARLOTTESVILLE, YESTERDAY?
>> NO, UNFORTUNATELY, I WASN'T SURPRISED.
WHAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS IS AN ESCALATION
IN TACTICS AT SOME OF THESE PROTESTS AND I THINK THAT THE
WAY THE POLICE ARE ADDRESSING IT IS CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEM
OR THE WAY THE POLICE AREN'T ADDRESSING THE SORT OF RUNNING
STREET BATTLES IS GIVING THE PROTESTERS THE IDEA THAT THIS IS
SANCTIONED VIOLENCE AND THEY ARE ALLOWED TO ENGAGE IN THIS
VIOLENCE AND THEREFORE SHOULD BE PREPARED AT THE NEXT RALLY TO
BRING EVEN MORE VIOLENCE. >> SO, MICHAEL, WHAT GROUPS DID
YOU GO UNDERCOVER WITH AND WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?
>> SO THERE WERE A NUMBER OF GROUPS THAT I WAS INVOLVED IN.
I DID A CASE IN THE EARLY 1990s INVOLVING NEO-NAZI SKIN HEAD
GROUPS THAT WORKED ACROSS A BROAD ARRAY OF DIFFERENT NAZI
GROUPS, WHITE SUPREMIST GROUP, WHITE NATIONALIST GROUPS.
AND YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND AT THE CRIMINAL LEVEL THE NAMES ARE
LESS IMPORTANT. THEY CAN SHED THE NAMES LIKE
THEY CHANGE THEIR CLOTHES. SO IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE
COMPLEX THAN I THINK THE GENERAL PUBLIC UNDERSTANDS OR EVEN
ACTUALLY LAW ENFORCEMENT UNDERSTANDS.
>> WERE YOU EVER FEARING FOR YOUR LIFE?
DID IT EVER GET THAT HAIRY? >> CERTAINLY.
THEY HAD A LOT OF GUNS AND I WAS ALL BY MYSELF SO YES, IT WAS
CERTAINLY A CHALLENGING INVESTIGATION.
BUT INTERESTINGLY, AT THAT TIME, I WORKED THOSE CASES AND A LATER
CASE AGAINST ANTI-GOVERNMENT MILITIA GROUPS AND THOSE CASES
WERE WORKED THROUGH THE JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCES.
THEY WERE CONSIDERED DOMESTIC TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.
THERE WASN'T THIS RETICENCE TO LABEL THIS TYPE OF VIOLENCE
TERRORISM WHEN IT CLEARLY HAD THE SAME POLITICAL AND SOCIAL
MOTIVES THAT OTHER ACTS THAT WE QUICKLY LABEL TERRORISM DO.
>> I WANT TO GET TO YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE FBI'S
UNDERSTANDING OF ALL THIS IN JUST A SECOND, BUT I'M CURIOUS,
WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO? DID YOU HAVE TO ACT LIKE THEM
WHEN YOU WERE UNDER COVER? >> CERTAINLY.
I LET THEM RECRUIT ME SO -- BECAUSE I REALIZED I COULDN'T
PRETEND TO KNOW THIS PHILOSOPHY AND SOMETIMES THEOLOGY THAT THEY
BELIEVED, SO I JUST PRESENTED MYSELF AS SOMEBODY WHO IS
RECRUITABLE AND THEN WOULD SIMPLY PARROT THEIR WORDS BACK
TO THEM IN MANY CASES. THE FIRST CASE I WORKED WAS IN
LOS ANGELES IN 1992 WHERE THE CITY WAS JUST GOING THROUGH
RACIAL STRIFE AFTER THE RODNEY KING BEATING.
SO IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT TIME IN THE CITY.
AND IT WAS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE FBI TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY
TRY TO PROTECT ALL COMMUNITIES EQUALLY.
>> I WAS THERE, THAT IS MY HOMETOWN.
SO I WANT TO GO THROUGH -- I READ AN INTERVIEW THAT YOU GAVE
AND IN ESSENCE YOU'RE CALLING OUT THE FBI, YOUR FORMER
EMPLOYER, AS NOT BEING FULLY COMPREHENSIVE OF THE SITUATION
THERE. I MEAN, YOU SAY THAT EVEN THE
NUMBERS OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE KILLED EVERY YEAR, HORRIBLE
NUMBERS, THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL PUT OUT AND
THEY'LL SAY THIS IS A RESULT OF A HATE CRIME, THESE DEATHS.
THEY ARE WOEFULLY UNDERREPORTED. TALK ABOUT THAT.
>> SO AFTER 9/11, SO FIRST OF ALL, TERRORISM IS DIFFERENTIATED
FROM OTHER KINDS OF VIOLENCE BUT ITS POLITICAL NATURE.
SO YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THAT COUNTERTERRORISM ALSO HAS A
TENDENCY TO BE NATURE. AFTER 9/11, THERE WAS A OBVIOUS
FOCUS ON TERRORISM COMMITTED BY AL QAEDA.
THEY QUICKLY BROADENNED OUT TO LOOK AT -- TO LUMP A LOT OF
DIFFERENT GROUPS TOGETHER AS RADICAL ISLAM.
BUT EVEN WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, STARTING AROUND 2005,
THE FBI LABELLED ENVIRONMENTAL EXTREMISTS AS THE NUMBER ONE
DEFENSIVE TERRORISM EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE NO DEATHS ASSOCIATED
WITH VIOLENCE ENVIRONMENTAL EXTREMISTS GROUPS IN THE UNITED
STATES. SO THERE WAS A WAY.
THERE ARE ACTS, RESOURCES ARE INVESTIGATED, THERE IS NOT AN
EFFORT TO SCARE THE PUBLIC. THEY MAKE IT A BIGGER PROBLEM
THAN IT IS, BUT WE SHOULD KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE THEY KILL EVERY
YEAR, BUT WE SHOULD KEEP THOSE RECORDS.
THAT SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT SHOULD HELP US DEVELOP THAT