foreign [Music] so there's been a lot of conversation in recent
years about expressive individualism you know the be true to yourself ubu kind of
mindset that is I write about it being just common sense for people that the purpose of life is to
look deep inside yourself to discover yourself and then to express that to the world do you
think that the conversations about expressive individualism have made their way more into
but we've both written about this but like do you feel like people in churches across
the country are talking about those more that like regular churchgoers are recognizing it
more like where do you think the the uh the the state of the conversation about this is whenever
I bring up expressive individualism it's a fresh idea for people uh so I don't get the sense that
the church is talking about it or understands it there there are some glimpses of it so you know
um the idea that you know you should be you you know there'll be some criticism and push back on
that but the concept itself and the Deep you know ideological roots of it that doesn't seem to be
well understood well I'm not as concerned about people understanding the the term and whether
they know the term but I'm I I feel like I've seen more conversation about it but it still seems like
whenever I'm having the conversation with people about this uh and even when I'm not using the term
but I'm just explaining hey this is the plot of a lot of movies and music and you can see this it's
like the narrative tension in our society I still it seems like in lots of places I'm at it's like
a light bulb goes on for people yeah so it makes me think okay then this must feel fresh and new
but yeah but but at the same time there's a lot of good resources that are starting to discuss
this like how how much is it going to take before will we be on to the next challenge by the time
people start to really pick up on this being one of the cultural challenges we face I kind
of get that sense yeah I kind of get that sense yeah it's a it's a little bit discouraging but
um because as you say there are a lot of great resources out there but we're not having these
I had the same exact experience the light bulb moment which is great to experience as somebody
who speaks courses right because I love it oh yeah okay I was able to put some pieces
together for you but um at some point you do kind of hope that people are like oh yeah we know this
um and we haven't reached that saturation Point yet so do you think do you think
we're still in the phase with this conversation where it's like more
because I struggle with this like at some point you part of the solution is the awareness of
it first yeah so that you can recognize it and then see how Christianity counters it and shows
A Better Way absolutely but it's hard to get to the Christianity shows a better way unless the
awareness is already there so are we still more in a raising awareness phase yeah where do you think
church leaders are on this I don't get the sense that most church leaders have thought through this
um but they are receptive to it when they hear it I'm not sure if the phrase expressive
individualism is um uh sounds too academic and maybe that's you know discouraging people I feel
like among church leaders the there there's more of an awareness than among picture on
congregations which would be expected because this is a conversation that a lot of people
are writing about in the more Church thought and practice leadership space but I I I'm wondering
if you're saying this one of the things I've I'm I'm hoping to encourage church leaders to do is
to preach with an edge to not just take a Bible passage and exposit the the the text according to
you know original meaning Bridge application what not sort of the the traditional way but to ask of
every sermon or question okay how do the points in the sermon or the the main thing I'm trying
to get across in the sermon that comes through the text how does it uh uh counter and and cut against
the common sense wisdom of the world because there's a way to preach the Bible where you you
you preach the text faithfully and people in your congregation because they're formed as expressive
individualists they're living according to the be true to yourself mindset they just wind up
incorporating your good sermon yeah into their sort of expressive individualist life right
yeah and so I'm encouraging pastors and preachers I've tried to do this in my own uh preaching and
teaching too to ask like what's the edge interest in this passage or in this Tech like what's the
edge that that that uh you know the world says this but Jesus says this and it's better and
here's why like to yeah to so that even no matter what you're preaching you're you're getting back
to that that edge of Contra distinction yeah there so when you talk to church leaders and they ask
you what do you mean by expressive individualism what do you tell them well I I when when people
ask what what I mean by a source of vegetables I call it the look and approach to life okay because
the way that I have tried to give church leaders sort of hooks to think about this or to explain
it without the academic language is to say when it comes to finding your purpose and meaning your
your priority is you look in first to yourself and your deepest desires then you look around
to other people for affirmation and for you know uh community and then you look up to God or to
some higher power for some sort of inspiration like the order of you may have categories for
all of that but the order of life is I am the determiner of my destiny of my I'm the one who
defines my identity and whatnot and that's in contrast to people who start with looking around
in traditional societies where the community tells you that and it's in contrast I think scripturally
to where it starts with looking up to God in his design then looking around at the Community of
Faith we belong to and then looking in to see what unique contribution we bring in our in
our Christ's likeness so I I'm I'm trying to help give that kind of a framework just so that people
can talk about this in ways that don't sound so jargony from an academic right standpoint
no that's good yeah so it's a very directional approach yeah yeah that's good yeah so I think
I usually say that you know there are two major parts of expressive individualism uh
one is that you have this overwhelming burden to discover or create or produce an identity
that your identity feels tenuous that it feels liquid that it feels uncertain and that creates
this sense of anxiety or dis-ease where you're not sure who you are or where you're supposed
to go or what you're supposed to do so you look inward to uh so there's that directional
component too so you look inward to create or discover sometimes we use different language
um you know sometimes there's a sense that there's this innate identity that we're just
tapping into sometimes it's well the self is a playground and you get to just build whatever
you want to build in the playground um yeah um and but then the second part is you have to
express it and there's no end to the expressing because it's through the expressing that your
identity actually gains uh validity and substance that's where you feel like you are alive that you
know yourself that you belong somewhere in the world and part of the problem with expressive
individualism there's a number of problems but one of them is that you you can never be satisfied
um you were you have to constantly be projecting yourself out into the world and I like to point to
social media as an example of that because that's what we're doing on social media we're constantly
projecting ourselves and it's exhausting and you have to also receive to be valid
you have to receive affirmation and acceptance and celebration from everyone which it I like
how you're you're taking a more of a where the the areas of anxiety you're already feeling as a
person and then showing them that it comes from this unstable way of creating identity yeah and
there's this Paradox too because on the one hand with expressive individualism we tend to think
um well no one can Define me right that's sort of the ethos is no one can Define me I Define
myself but uh the problem is as you point out you have to get affirmation from somebody else
that's built into the idea of witness um to to have an identity you have to have
a witness out there who sees you and affirms you and so I think that's one of the reasons
why receiving affirmation public affirmation is so important for contemporary people yeah