that's a question josh rogan asked on
our show in every show
uh as people wonder why why is it such a
why is it so hard to get people to ask a
tough question for anthony fauci why are
we asking about what kind of mass to
wear
instead of why were we giving grants to
this wuhan lab
what do we expect to gain josh rogan
joins us now where rejoins us author of
chaos under heaven
a fascinating book trump she in the
battle for the 21st century
josh welcome back great to be back with
you brian joshua
you asked this question i listened to
the joe rogan podcast it was three hours
uh it was very thorough and you were
saying like almost it's a relief to be
on more than
four minutes and be able to explain this
but do you feel as though
the american public is catching up to
your curiosity and your
and and our need to find out how this
pandemic started
and what role this lab may have played
yeah well brian you're exactly right
i've been shocked for the last 15 months
that there hasn't been
you know hours and hours and hours of
discussion every day about how did we
get into this dystopian mess that we're
all
suffering from not just americans seven
billion americans seven billion people
around the world suffering from the
pandemic
and nobody cares how this started and no
one's investigating it
the who investigation was crap and now
we have to start all from scratch and
now we have more and more people
including you by the way for who are
covering this
in a real way and that's super important
and this is not a partisan thing it's
not about trump it's not about
you know who is right in march of 2020
it's about finding out how we got here
so that we can prevent the next pandemic
and
now you have more and more people
congressman gallagher uh you've got a
congressman congresswoman kathy mcmorris
rogers uh you've got a couple of
senators who are not quite public i
think anthony fauci is going to get
asked about this today
he's testifying right now as we're
speaking before the senate help
committee
it's going to come up finally people are
taking this seriously now what we're
waiting for is for the biden
administration to take it seriously
are they going to release the
intelligence that they have are they
gonna take all of this
uh investigation that they're supposedly
doing behind the scenes and tell us
about it
uh when are they gonna get around to
this are they gonna push the chinese
government and the who
to do more to investigate the lab theory
they don't know we don't know
and without their actual buy-in this is
gonna be a lot harder not to crack
well as you remember josh one of the
first people to bring this up and kind
of in my view i don't know what happened
behind the scenes pushed president trump
to act and have the travel ban was
tom cotton he said you know i'm looking
at that lab
i'm not surprised if this thing came
from the wuhan lab and then china
brutally came back and say you know stop
with your sensationalistic tactics
uh essentially how dare you come up with
some scenario we told you how this
happened stop asking questions
and now that's become central of your
book
and a lot of these questions what about
that lab because
the other ideas of how this started
don't seem plausible
tell everybody what the who came up with
and how the director of the who wasn't
even
convinced they got a good report in
front of him right well you're exactly
right back in
early 2020 tom cotton and mike pompeo
and some others said hey we got to look
into this lab and they were shouted down
as racists and conspiracy theorists
and all the rest and that that was when
this issue of the origin story
became super politicized because it
became a litmus test about
whether or not you agree with trump but
you know the bottom line is that the
origin
question is not a political question
it's not even a scientific question it's
a forensic question
something really bad happened and we
have to figure out what happened and
here we are a year later 580 000 dead
in our country 3 million dead worldwide
and we still
are nowhere okay and what the who did
quite to their discredit
was they appointed the best friends of
the lab to investigate the lab peter
dazik
meko health alliance who are funding w
when institute of virology
who are themselves funded by the nih and
the nia id led by
anthony fauci uh went to the lab uh
didn't do the investigation declared
that it was highly unlikely and said
told everyone to shut up about it okay
but we're not going to shut up about it
because that even the head of the who as
you mentioned dr tedros said
no we have to look into this lab robert
redfield
sanjay gupta you know that more and more
scientists are saying listen
it doesn't matter what the politics are
this is a plausible theory and in fact
a mounting amount of circumstantial
evidence points to it as the most
plausible theory
which just means we have to check it out
at the very least if this escaped one of
our labs
i would like to think we would admit it
but we'd also feel a degree of
humiliation
i don't see any of that humility from
china at
all almost defiance is if look how lucky
we are we recovered first
i'm not sure what they do they tell
their therapist but what they're telling
the world is don't look at me
well it's even worse than that because
they're covering up the origin story you
know what i consider to be a blatantly
uh criminal way i mean think about it
they took the scientists
and they shut them up they hid the
science they closed down the
uh databases that would help us get
there they won't hand over the data
and that we could still use to help us
respond right now they're still holding
that
early data hidden secret from us secret
from the world and that's having a
direct effect on our national security
and our public health inherit how dare
they by the way and you know this is
goes to the sort of core of the issue is
you know we we have a lot of cooperation
with these chinese labs and
that was based on this bet that if we
just engage with the chinese communist
party in china
as much as possible that cooperation
would produce
liberalization and that would solve all
of our problems but the chinese
communist party doesn't see it that way
that's what the book is about
it's about how we have to deal with the
chinese communist party as it is and
what it is
is an organization that is weaponizing
its engagement against us and this is a
prime example
and if we can't cooperate with them on
solving a pandemic because they're
intentionally hiding the origin
intentionally which is resulting in the
death of americans
to this day well then what can we
cooperate with them on that means we
have to take a different approach and we
have to
our leaders have to press their leaders
to do more to
prevent this from happening again which
it surely will if we don't figure it out
josh i give you so much credit for your
original premise when the all you know
the washington post and i imagine cnn uh
saying you know we're focusing on russia
we're focusing on russian trump
there's something there you go yeah just
give me china uh you know just give me
china and no one really put
a force on that but uh with your
knowledge of when you worked in japan
before and with your
knowledge of the area and the way you're
curious about everything obviously
extremely bright
you were able to pick up something that
is it is now the number one issue
in the world and you retweeted something
this morning about anthony fauci
you said last night about the wall
street journal column from james freeman
and you two quoted actually as you said
anthony factory actually has no idea
whether the wuhan institute of rheology
was conducting gain of function research
quote it is impossible for us to be
aware
nor can we be account for all their
activities well why are we writing them
checks
how much money did we give them do we
put any contingencies on it
right well this is these are the
questions we need answers to and that's
why you see
congress people like mike gallagher and
kathy mcmorris rogers and others
senator menendez and senator risch have
a bill calling on the biden
administration to tell us what it knows
and calling on the nih and the nia id to
open up their books
uh now they can say we didn't fund gain
of function research but it's a
it's a sleight of hand because they're
defining it in such a way that they can
say that
and the bottom line is that we need to
know what was going on in those labs in
wuhan
and the what we've heard from peter
desick and others is oh well we know
what they were working on so we knew
that they were innocent
but what the nih just said in that quote
told the wall street journal is that
actually we don't know
actually there's another side of that
lab the side that they didn't tell us
about
and that involves working with the
chinese military according to the trump
administration
and the biden administration so they're
doing stuff that we're not aware of so
anyone who tells you
that we know what they were doing is
liar okay because the nih just admit the
mid mid to the opposite that means we
need to figure out what they were doing
we need to figure out if it led
to this outbreak that doesn't mean we
know it just means we have to
investigate
all the theories and anyone who tells
you we should investigate all the
theories
you have to ask yourself is that person
conflicted is that person linked to
their research
that will reveal why they're telling you
that josh rogan is with us now and if
you're
if you're uh very curious about what
he's saying it's all in his book uh
chaos under heaven but yet there's
probably gonna be in the paperback an
additional chapter about
what we get out of hearings like today
so stay tuned for that we'll bring it
back and actually i'm hosting the seven
o'clock tonight and i'm going to take
some of what you're saying
and put that on tonight first off why do
so
have you figured out this question
because why do so few people
ask anthony factory real questions he
was on three shows this weekend
why would not one of those questions be
the origin of the virus
what do you know and why we're using u.s
dollars on this gain of function
research
did you not know that the the us
wanted that stopped and did you use a
loophole did you work a loophole in
order to
allow the wuhan institute to continue to
do this
you know brian it's a real tragedy that
the issue of the origin of the pandemic
became politicized okay and what
happened was there was a section of the
media that wanted to talk about it and
there was a section in the media that
didn't want to talk about it
and the section of me that didn't want
to talk about it is the section that
anthony fauci talks to okay
and so that's why he hasn't gotten asked
about it now i think that's going to end
i think today in congress in the senate
that's going to end i don't hasn't
happened right at this moment but by the
time you do your show tonight it will
have
okay the point is that uh you know these
are basic
questions these are important questions
they're not an attack on anthony fauci
they're they're a a an investigation
into
the biggest crisis in human history
that's still raging across the world
and there it's an investigation that
will eventually need bipartisan
support and all media to share in the
the common goal of searching for the
truth of this thing
because we're all in this thing together
okay that's what we haven't had and
we can go back a year and explain why
that happened how this got so
screwed up in our public discourse but
that's not as important as saying
that right now what we need is
bipartisanship and leadership to get to
the bottom of this
crucial scientific and national security
question to save
as many lives as possible and that's
going to require asking anthony fauci
some uncomfortable questions i'm sure he
doesn't want to get asked
but tough that's what he's going to have
to do well josh
do you think pressure from both sides
you mentioned senator menendez
uh obviously there's the senators i've
been talking to from ron johnson on back
um you know that they want answers to
this i know that
i know that rand paul's been very
aggressive when it comes to some of our
policies here but do you believe the
type of pressure from both sides will
get the biden administration to act and
make this clear what is the downside
of president biden coming out and going
you know i just found this out they were
doing some dangerous experience of the
wound
wuhan institute no one's going to blame
joe biden for this
let everyone know and let your allies
know so it doesn't look like america
alone
that's a really great point brian i'll
tell you from my conversations with top
fiden administration officials
that they're thinking about it right now
they don't know what they're gonna do
okay
avril haynes said she's that the ic is
investigating both the lab accident
theory and the natural urgency and i
think that's true as far as it goes the
political downside for the biden team is
that
if they admit that the lab accident
theory is plausible uh
the progressive wing of their caucus
that's been so committed to this idea
that the lab accident theory is a
conspiracy theory
will have to be thrown under the bus
they'll have to be told that that's not
actually
true and that's a downside risk but it's
not nearly as important as actually
finding out what happened and i think
the biden team is just thinking about
those things they don't trust the trump
team's work necessarily
they're trying to go through it they're
taking their time about it but yes i
don't think without more pressure they
won't do more so
i think the pressure does need to come
from democrats and it's not enough yet
and it's not okay that it's only
republicans
and because it makes it into a more of a
partisan issue than it has to be when it
actually it's a matter of public health
that affects everybody it affects
democrats
republicans it affects americans and
people all over the world so
uh i think that pressure is mounting but
it's not we're not there yet that's for
sure
i'll tell you why you do talk about the
president and the person relationship
with president xi
to the point where president xi told the
president personally last spring
this will go away with heat with the
summer uh and if there is no human team
in transfer he actually believed it
and it talked about this three-year
relationship
that donald trump thought would pay off
in a moment like this
instead it was to his detriment isn't
that ironic
yeah it's crazy actually that president
trump when he listened to the national
security experts and shut down travel
from china
that was a good thing when he listened
to his political people who said oh
don't worry about it it's going to go
away
that was a bad thing and that was a real
problem inside the trump administration
and
the fact that the tie was broken in many
cases by the chinese president
who wishes us harm you know who is
trying to exert a policy that
that advances china's interests which
are against ours
okay and that trump didn't realize that
that's a tragedy but
you know trump did eventually come to
the realization that chinese president
xi jinping
wasn't his friend and he unleashed his
national security officials
in those last few months to do a lot of
good things related to competition with
china but it was too late
it was i want you to hear what
administrator said about you your
premise and your questions
josh rogan is gold standard of
reporting he's uh he's bipartisan he's
you know he's a reporter he's not yep he
totally does
and if josh is telling you something you
can
take it to the bank on the quality of
the reporting and the fact that he plays
the ball down the middle
of the field he's not got a political
agenda so
i take him very seriously and i
obviously
agree with the idea and by the way it's
not just a failure of pandemics
we are failing at understanding how
rapidly china is overtaking us in cyber
security and artificial intelligence and
quantum computing
so uh josh said say he's a former
supreme allied commander
of nato so that's no small compliment
listen that's very kind of the admiral
you know all
all that means to me is that you know
i'm not a partisan guy i'm not a
pro-trump guy i'm not an anti-trump guy
if you read my book you will see
good and bad and ugly things that happen
during the trump administration
on china but that's maybe the the reason
that like i didn't get into one of these
camps in the first place i wasn't
for the natural origin theory i'm not
for the lab accident theory i'm for the
truth
we got to be for the truth that's the
bottom line that's the way that
we get out of this thing that we
hopefully prevent the next one lastly
i just see china has quadrupled the
amount of money they're putting in here
to get
uh rhetoric and disinformation into our
society
obviously if you want to hurt america
foment the racial unrest the political
divide do you believe they're doing that
they are doing that egregiously and
wantonly and increasing their efforts
every day now
i saw that article that you're talking
about in axios that said they went from
like 10 million to 60 million in terms
of
influence efforts that is the tip of the
iceberg the chinese communist party is
spending billions with a b
billions of dollars uh to seed our
institutions
and to corrupt our elites on both sides
of the aisle by the way which they have
been doing for decades
money is coming in hand over fist over
and over every day
and no one's tracking okay and that's at
in our schools and our companies on our
wall street markets
uh in our hollywood studios in our
sports
and that's the biggest scope of the
problem is that we have to track all
this money coming in
and we have to look skeptically at the
people who are taking this money and
that kind of transparency will help us
protect us from foreign influence of all
kinds
got it josh rogan uh congratulations on
the book hopefully we'll get some
questions answered today it's called
chaos under heaven josh thank you
anytime hi when i'm brian kilmeade i
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