WE’RE GOING TO BE WATCHING WEDNESDAY NIGHT, AND OF COURSE
WE’LL BE WATCHING YOU TOMORROW
NIGHT, TOO.
NIGHT, TOO. >> THANKS, DEAR.
>> THANK YOU, RACHEL.
>>> I REMEMBER IT VIVIDLY.
I’VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE
THIS.
THIS. THAT’S WHAT DAVID HOLMES SAID
UNDER OATH ON PAGE 54 OF HIS
DEPOSITION TRANSCRIPT RELEASED
TODAY IN THE BREAKING STORY OF
THE NIGHT.
THE NIGHT. IT’S ABOUT THE INCIDENT THAT
MADE DAVID HOLMES AN IMPORTANT
WITNESS IN THE IMPEACHMENT
INVESTIGATION OF DONALD TRUMP.
DAVID HOLMES IS AN IMPORTANT
WITNESS WHO WE DID NOT EVEN KNOW
EXISTED AT THIS TIME LAST WEEK.
THE FIRST PUBLIC REFERENCE MADE
TO DAVID HOLMES WAS IN
WEDNESDAY’S HEARING WHEN
AMBASSADOR WILLIAM TAYLOR
SHOCKED THE HEARING ROOM AND
MILLIONS OF VIEWERS WHEN HE
DESCRIBED A PHONE CALL FROM A
RESTAURANT IN UKRAINE TO
PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT DAVID
HOECHLZ
HOECHLZ HOLMES HAD OVERHEARD.
BUT AMBASSADOR TAYLOR DID NOT
REVEAL THEN DAVID HOLMES’ NAME.
HE SIMPLY SAID IT WAS A MEMBER
OF HIS STAFF WHO OVERHEARD THE
CALL.
CALL. TWO DAYS AFTER AMBASSADOR
TAYLOR’S TESTIMONY, DAVID HOLMES
WAS DESCRIBING THAT PHONE CALL
UNDER OATH IN A CLOSED DOOR
DEPOSITION ON FRIDAY.
AND ON FRIDAY NIGHT, THAT BECAME
OUR BREAKING NEWS, BECAUSE WE
WERE ABLE TO REPORT DAVID
HOLMES’ VERSION OF THE PHONE
CALL FROM HIS WRITTEN OPENING
STATEMENT, WHICH NBC NEWS HAD
OBTAINED ON FRIDAY.
AND NOW TONIGHT WE HAVE THE FULL
TRANSCRIPT.
TRANSCRIPT. THE NOW FAMOUS PHONE CALL WAS
MADE ON A CELL PHONE AT A
RESTAURANT IN KYIV BY THE TRUMP
AMBASSADOR TO THE EUROPEAN
UNION, GORDON SONDLAND, AFTER
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND MET WITH
PRESIDENT ZELENSKY.
PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. CHAIRMAN ADAM SCHIFF TOOK DAVID
HOLMES THROUGH THAT PHONE CALL
STEP BY STEP.
THE CHAIRMAN.
THE CHAIRMAN. NOW, YOU SAID THE PRESIDENT’S
VOICE WAS LOUD AND RECOGNIZABLE,
AND AMBASSADOR SONDLAND HELD THE
PHONE AWAY FROM HIS HEAD, IS
THAT RIGHT?
THAT RIGHT? YES, SIR.
YES, SIR. HE WAS SORT OF WAITING FOR HIM
TO COME ON, AND WHEN HE CAME ON,
HE SORT OF WINCED AND WENT LIKE
THAT THE FIRST COUPLE EXCHANGES.
HE SORT OF WINCED.
THE CHAIRMAN: AND YOU HEARD HIM
ON THE PHONE?
>>
>> YES.
YES. >> AND YOU HEARD AMBASSADOR
SONDLAND GREET THE PRESIDENT AND
SAY HE WAS CALLING FROM KYIV,
AND THEN YOU COULD HEAR
PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTING TO
CLARIFY THE AMBASSADOR SONDLAND
WAS, IN FACT, IN UKRAINE?
.
. YEAH.
YEAH. YES, YOU MEAN UKRAINE?
YES.
YES. UKRAINE.
UKRAINE. THE CHAIRMAN: AND THEN YOU SAID
PRESIDENT ZELENSKY ON AMBASSADOR
SONDLAND.
SONDLAND. AND THEN HE WENT ON TO SAY,
PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WILL DO
ANYTHING YOU ASK HIM TO.
MR. HOLMES: YES.
THE CHAIRMAN: AND THOSE WERE THE
WORDS YOU HEARD TO THE BEST OF
YOUR RECOLLECTION?
YOUR RECOLLECTION? MR. HOLMES: YES.
MR. CHAIRMAN: AND IT LEFT QUITE
AN IMPRESSION ON YOU, DIDN’T IT?
MR. HOLMES: THIS WAS A
DISTINCTIVE MOMENT IN MY CAREER.
I’VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE
THIS, SOMEONE CALLING THE
PRESIDENT FROM A MOBILE PHONE AT
A RESTAURANT, AND THEN HAVING A
CONVERSATION OF THIS LEVEL OF
CANDOR, COLORFUL LANGUAGE.
THERE’S JUST SO MUCH ABOUT THE
CALL THAT WAS SO REMARKABLE THAT
I REMEMBER IT VIVIDLY.
MR. HOLMES WILL BE TESTIFYING IN
A PUBLIC HEARING ON THURSDAY
MORNING.
MORNING. GORDON SONDLAND WILL TESTIFY THE
DAY BEFORE DAVID HOLMES, ON
WEDNESDAY MORNING.
WEDNESDAY MORNING. >>> LEADING OFF OUR DISCUSSION
TONIGHT IS CONGRESSMAN DENNY
HECK OF WASHINGTON.
HE IS A MEMBER OF INTELLIGENCE
HOUSE COMMITTEE.
HOUSE COMMITTEE. HE ATTENDED DAVID HOLMES’ UNDER
OATH DEPOSITION.
OATH DEPOSITION. ALSO AN MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST
COVERING HIS SECOND IMPEACHMENT.
HE WAS A YOUNGER MAN FOR THAT
FIRST ONE IN THE 1970s.
>> THAT IS CORRECT.
>> AND NORM LOWENSTEIN HAS
WATCHED ALL THREE OF THESE
IMPEACHMENTS FROM NIXON FORWARD.
LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THIS
DEPOSITION WE’RE GETTING.
IT WAS DRAMATIC ENOUGH ON FRIDAY
NIGHT WHEN WE READ THE OPENING
STATEMENT IN WHICH HE DESCRIBES
THIS PHONE CALL SO CLEARLY.
BUT SEEING THE TESTIMONY THAT
CHAIRMAN SCHIFF TOOK HIM THROUGH
AND HEARING HIS EXPLANATION OF
WHY HE REMEMBERS IT SO VIVIDLY
IS ALL THE MORE POWERFUL.
AND I COULDN’T FIND IN THE
TRANSCRIPT, AND CORRECT ME IF
I’M WRONG, I COULD NOT FIND ANY
REPUBLICAN MEMBERS IN ANY WAY
SHAKING DAVID HOLMES ON ANYTHING
ABOUT THAT PHONE CALL.
>> NOT FOR ONE NANOSECOND,
LAWRENCE.
LAWRENCE. >> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF DAVID
HOLMES’ GENERAL CREDIBILITY
ABOUT THE RANGE OF HIS
TESTIMONY?
TESTIMONY? >> I THOUGHT HE WAS AN EXCELLENT
WITNESS.
WITNESS. FRANKLY, HIS REVELATION WAS
JAW-DROPPING, NAMELY THAT THE
PRESIDENT SAID WORDS TO THE
EFFECT, SO THERE IS GOING TO BE
AN INVESTIGATION.
AN INVESTIGATION. BUT THERE WERE A COUPLE OTHER
THINGS THERE THAT WERE PRETTY
STUNNING, TOO, AS WE’VE TALKED
ABOUT SOME, THE FACT WE WERE
HAVING A CONVERSATION BETWEEN
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND AND
PRESIDENT TRUMP ON A TERRACE OF
A RESTAURANT OUT IN THE OPEN IN
KYIV, UKRAINE WITH NO DOUBT
OFFICERS EVERYWHERE.
OFFICERS EVERYWHERE. WHAT
WHAT HE SAID HE DIDN’T GIVE AN
EXPLETIVE, DELETED, ABOUT IT,
THAT HE CARED ABOUT THE BIG
STUFF.
STUFF. AND MR. HOLMES SAID, THERE IS
BIG STUFF GOING ON IN UKRAINE,
LIKE A WAR WITH RUSSIA.
AND AMBASSADOR SONDLAND SAID,
NO, BIG STUFF LIKE GETTING HIS
INVESTIGATIONS IN EFFECT.
HE DIDN’T CARE, HE DOESN’T CARE
ABOUT UKRAINE, A STRATEGIC ALLY,
THIS VULNERABLE ALLY THAT IS
STRUGGLING TO GET ON HIS FEET AS
A THRIVING DEMOCRACY AND PUSH
BACK ON MALIGNING INTENT AND
RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.
RUSSIAN AGGRESSION. >> IT’S A FAIR IMPRESSION TO
HAVE TO WATCH DONALD TRUMP FROM
A DISTANCE TO JUST ASSERT THAT
HE DOESN’T CARE ABOUT UKRAINE OR
HE DOESN’T CARE ABOUT A WHOLE
HOST OF THINGS THAT WE ALL SEEM
TO THINK HE DOESN’T CARE ABOUT.
IT’S ANOTHER THING TO ACTUALLY
HEAR FROM SOMEONE WHO IS QUOTING
SOMEONE, WHO WAS JUST ON THE
PHONE WITH DONALD TRUMP, WHO IS
SAYING, NO, HE DOESN’T GIVE A
CRAP ABOUT UKRAINE.
>> NOT HIS EXACT WORDS, AS YOU
WELL KNOW, LAWRENCE.
YOU COULD HAVE HEARD A PIN DROP
DURING THE DEPOSITION DURING
THAT PASSAGE.
THAT PASSAGE. SDPLZ
SDPLZ >> I’M GOING TO READ THAT
PASSAGE NOW FOR OUR AUDIENCE AS
IT EMERGED IN THE ACTUAL
DEPOSITION TESTIMONY AND THE
QUESTIONING WITH THE CHAIRMAN.
ON FRIDAY NIGHT WE HAD A VERSION
OF THIS FROM THE OPENING
STATEMENT BUT THERE’S MORE HERE.
THE CHAIRMAN SAID, WHAT LED YOU
TO BELIEVE THAT THE PRESIDENT
DIDN’T GIVE A CRAP -- AND I’M
CLEANING THAT UP -- A CRAP ABOUT
UKRAINE?
UKRAINE? THAT’S AN INTERESTING WAY TO
START A QUESTION ASKING FOR
FEEDBACK.
FEEDBACK. MR. HOLMES SAID, YEAH, I’M NOT
PROUD OF MY LANGUAGE, BUT THE
SORT OF TONY HEARD GORDON
SONDLAND USE IN HIS CALL TO THE
PRESIDENT, WE WERE JUST SORT OF
TWO GUYS OVER LUNCH TALKING
ABOUT STUFF, AND IT SEEMED TO ME
THAT WAS THE KIND OF LANGUAGE
THAT HE USED, SO I, AT THAT
POINT, BELIEVED THAT IT HAD BEEN
VERY DIFFICULT FOR US TO GET THE
PRESIDENT INTERESTED IN WHAT WE
WERE TRYING TO DO IN UKRAINE.
THOSE ARE THE WORDS I CHOSE.
MEANING THAT DAVID HOLMES ASKED
GORDON SONDLAND THAT QUESTION,
DOES HE GIVE A CRAP.
THE CHAIRMAN SAID, AND SONDLAND
AGREED WITH YOU THAT THE
PRESIDENT DID NOT GIVE A CRAP
ABOUT UKRAINE, SO HIS ANSWER WAS
TO YOU, THE PRESIDENT DOESN’T
GIVE A CRAP ABOUT UKRAINE.
MR. HOLMES: MY RECOLLECTION, HE
SAID, NOPE, NOT AT ALL, DOESN’T
GIVE A CRAP ABOUT UKRAINE.
HE SAID HE ONLY CARES ABOUT BIG
THINGS.
THINGS. THE CHAIRMAN: BIG THINGS OR BIG
STUFF?
STUFF? MR. HOLMES: BIG STUFF, BIG
THINGS.
THINGS. BIG.
BIG. THE CHAIRMAN SAID, AND YOU NOTED
THINGS WERE GOING ON IN UKRAINE
LIKE IN RUSSIA?
>> YES
>> YES HE SAID YES.
AND BIG THINGS LIKE THIS BIDEN
INVESTIGATION THAT RUDY GIULIANI
IS PUSHING.
IS PUSHING. THE CHAIRMAN: SO SONDLAND
CONVEYED THAT THE BIG STUFF THE
PRESIDENT CARED ABOUT WAS STUFF
THAT BENEFITED THE PRESIDENT,
LIKE THE INVESTIGATION INTO THE
BIDENS?
BIDENS? MR. HOLMES: THAT WAS MY
UNDERSTANDING, YES.
UNDERSTANDING, YES. NORM LOWENSTEIN, THAT WAS
TESTIMONY BY SOMEONE WHO WAS
SPEAKING TO SOMEONE WHO JUST
HUNG UP THE PHONE FROM THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
>> LAWRENCE, WITH THIS AND SOME
OF THE OTHER DEPOSITIONS THAT
WE’VE HEARD, THERE ARE MORE
SMOKING GUNS HERE THAN THERE ARE
AT WAYNE LaPIERRE’S SHOOTING
RANGE.
RANGE. YOU KNOW, IF WE PUT THIS INTO A
LARGER CONTEXT, WE KNOW THAT
THERE WAS A COMPLETE
ORCHESTRATED SMEAR CAMPAIGN TO
GET AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH OUT
OF THERE BECAUSE SHE WAS
FIGHTING CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE.
WE KNOW THAT AS SOON AS SHE
LEFT, THE SO-CALLED THREE
AMIGOS, SONDLAND, AMBASSADOR
VOLKER AND RICK PERRY, STEPPED
IN TO SAY THEY WERE IN CHARGE OF
THE POLICY AND THAT RUDY
GIULIANI, WHO HAD HELPED THE
SMEAR CAMPAIGN, WAS DEEPLY
INVOLVED, AND WE KNOW THAT THERE
WAS ENORMOUS PRESSURE PUT ON
PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, INCLUDING
TWO THINGS HE WANTED, A MEETING
WITH THE PRESIDENT TO REAFFIRM
AMERICA’S COMMITMENT TO UKRAINE
AND THE AID PACKAGE.
AND THAT IT WAS HELD UP AND IT
WAS HELD UP DESPITE THE FACT
THAT EVERY AGENCY IN THE
EXECUTIVE BRANCH EXCEPT FOR MICK
MULVANEY AND OMB WANTED IT
RELEASED.
RELEASED. THIS IS SO CORRUPT AND SO BAD
FOR AMERICA’S NATIONAL INTEREST
THAT IT’S JUST BREATHTAKING.
>> AND I WANT TO READ ONE MORE
PASSAGE FROM THE TESTIMONY, AND
THIS IS ABOUT THE SECURITY OF
THIS PHONE CALL WHICH I THINK
CONGRESSMAN HECK, I’M SURE, HAD
SHOCKED YOU TO KNOW THIS WAS AN
AMBASSADOR MAKING A CELL PHONE
CALL FROM ANYWHERE, BUT FROM
UKRAINE, OF ALL PLACES.
LET ME JUST READ HOW THE DETAILS
OF THAT UNFOLDED IN THE
TESTIMONY.
TESTIMONY. THE CHAIRMAN: DID THAT CAUSE YOU
ANY CONCERN ABOUT THE SECURITY
OF THAT PHONE CALL?
MR. HOLMES: IT WAS SURPRISING TO
ME THAT HE -- YES, IN MY
EXPERIENCE GENERALLY, PHONE
CALLS WITH THE PRESIDENT ARE
VERY SENSITIVE AND HANDLED
ACCORDINGLY.
ACCORDINGLY. THE CHAIRMAN: AND MAKING A CELL
PHONE CALL FROM UKRAINE?
IS THERE A RISK OF RUSSIANS
LISTENING IN?
LISTENING IN? MR. HOLMES: I BELIEVE AT LEAST
TWO OF THE THREE, IF NOT ALL
THREE, OF THE MOBILE NETWORKS
ARE OWNED BY RUSSIAN COMPANIES
OR HAVE SIGNIFICANT STAKES IN
THOSE.
THOSE. WE GENERALLY ASSUME THAT MOBILE
COMMUNICATIONS IN UKRAINE ARE
BEING MONITORED.
BEING MONITORED. THE CHAIRMAN: AND, IN FACT,
AMBASSADOR NEWLAND’S
AMBASSADOR NEWLAND’S COMMUNICATIONS AT ONE POINT HAD
BEEN MONITORED AND RELEASED FOR
POLITICAL EFFECT.
POLITICAL EFFECT. MR. HOLMES: YES, SIR.
THE CHAIRMAN: SO THERE WAS NOT
ONLY THE CONCERN WITH THE
OWNERSHIP OF THE
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMPANIES BUT
PAST PRACTICE?
PAST PRACTICE? MR. HOLMES: YES, SIR.
CONGRESSMAN HECK, AT THAT POINT
WHEN YOU WERE HEARING ABOUT THIS
AMBASSADOR WHO WAS JUST WHIPPING
OUT A CELL PHONE IN UKRAINE,
CALLING THE PRESIDENT -- AND
THERE’S TWO ENDS OF THIS.
THE WHITE HOUSE LETS THAT PHONE
CALL GO THROUGH.
WHAT DID THE REPUBLICANS HAVE TO
SAY IN THAT ROOM ABOUT THE
SECURITY OF THAT PHONE CALL?
>> OKAY, LAWRENCE, WE’RE NOT
TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHAT
OTHER REPUBLICANS SAID EXCEPT
FOR THAT WHICH YOU CAN FIND IN
YOUR DEPOSITION.
YOUR DEPOSITION. BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS
THEY HAVE ACTUALLY TORTURED
THEMSELVES, TURNED THEMSELVES
INTO A PRETZEL DEFENDING THE
PRESIDENT AND TRYING TO EXPLAIN
AWAY IN EACH AND EVERY REGARD
WHAT WENT ON HERE.
IT’S NO DIFFERENT HERE, AND IT’S
NOT GOING TO BE ANY DIFFERENT, I
PREDICT, WHEN MR. HOLMES COMES
BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON
THURSDAY.
THURSDAY. BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, FACTS
MATTER, AND THE FACTS ARE THE
FACTS, AND AMERICA IS GOING TO
HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR THEM
FIRSTHAND.
FIRSTHAND. I WANT TO PUT THIS A LITTLE BIT
INTO CONTEXT, IF I MAY,
LAWRENCE.
LAWRENCE. WE ARE TWO HEARINGS OUT OF SEVEN
TO GO, SO FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO
ARE HARRY POTTER FANS, WE’RE
ONLY AT THE END OF BOOK 2.
WE’VE GOT FIVE BOOKS TO GO AND
EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THERE IS A
LOT OF PLOT AHEAD.
THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF
REVEALING OF INFORMATION THAT
BEARS UPON THIS VERY SUBJECT FOR
AMERICA.
AMERICA. >> CONGRESSMAN, WHAT CAN YOU
TELL US ABOUT WHAT WE CAN EXPECT
TOMORROW?
TOMORROW? >> WELL, I THINK MOST
IMPORTANTLY, AMERICA IS GOING TO
GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE A
DECORATED WAR HERO, COLONEL
VINDMAN, WHO, OF COURSE, IS A
COLONEL -- LIEUTENANT COLONEL IN
THE UNITED STATES ARMY SERVING
IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY
COUNCIL.
COUNCIL. HE’S THE INDIVIDUAL WHO
IMMEDIATELY WENT TO THE COUNCIL,
THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL’S
COUNSEL BECAUSE HE WAS CONCERNED
ABOUT BOTH THE MEETINGS ON JULY
10th AND THE PHONE CALL ON JULY
25th BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND
PRESIDENT ZELENSKY.
PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. HE IS, IN FACT, A DECORATED
SOLDIER.
SOLDIER. HE WAS AWARDED THE PURPLE HEART
FOR INJURIES SUSTAINED IN THE
IRAQI WAR, AS I RECALL, AND I
THINK THEY’RE GOING TO SEE THE
BEST OF OUR COUNTRY ON DISPLAY.
>> JONATHAN ALTER, TO GET TO
THIS PHONE CALL, I WANT TO
DOUBLE THE LINE THAT THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
RAN A CAMPAIGN ON THE SECURITY
OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS,
SPECIFICALLY HILLARY CLINTON’S,
IN HIS VIEW, LACK OF SECURITY
AND THE WAY SHE HANDLED HER
EMAILS.
EMAILS. I AM ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO
BELIEVED THAT AT LEAST SOME OF
THE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE
AND THE HOUSE WHO WERE CONCERNED
ABOUT THAT WERE GENUINELY
CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.
THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE
THAT ANY OF THEM WERE CONCERNED
ABOUT THAT SINCE NONE OF THEM
ARE NOW CONCERNED ABOUT THE
SECURITY OF THIS PHONE CALL.
>> IT’S JUST A HYPOCRISY FEST.
WHAT WAS "LOCK HER UP"?
WHAT WAS SHE SUPPOSED TO BE
LOCKED UP FOR?
THE SERVER, RIGHT, THAT IT
WASN’T SECURE.
WASN’T SECURE. THAT’S WHY ALL THOSE FOLKS AT
THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION SAID
SHE SHOULD GO TO JAIL.
>> LOCK HER UP.
>> THE LEVEL OF INSECURITY IN
THAT SERVER PALES NEXT TO MAKING
A PHONE CALL THAT IS BEING
LISTENED TO BY PHONE COMPANIES
THAT ARE OWNED BY RUSSIANS.
AND ON TOP OF THAT, YOU KNOW, I
THINK THERE IS SOME QUESTION WHY
THIS OBSESSION BY TRUMP IN,
QUOTE, INVESTIGATIONS,
QUOTE, INVESTIGATIONS, INVESTIGATING BIDEN.
INVESTIGATING BIDEN. WHY IS HE DROPPING EVERYTHING
ELSE, DROPPING HIS GOLF GAME TO
CALL SONDLAND IN KYIV?
THINK BACK AGAIN TO HILLARY’S
EMAILS.
EMAILS. THAT’S HOW HE GOT ELECTED.
HE JUST SAID EMAILS, EMAILS,
EMAILS.
EMAILS. SHE DID SOMETHING SLEAZY.
AND MANY PEOPLE WERE COMING
BACK, I CAN’T VOTE FOR HER
BECAUSE OF EMAILS.
HE WAS GOING TO SAY BIDEN WAS
GUILTY OF CORRUPTION.
HE WAS GOING TO SAY THAT ALL THE
WAY TO HIS TICKET.
THIS IS WHY IT’S ESSENTIAL TO
DONALD TRUMP’S EFFORTS, AND
EVERYTHING WAS ABOUT SMEARING
BIDEN.
BIDEN. BECAUSE ONCE AN INVESTIGATION IS
OPENED, IT CAN STAY OPEN FOR AT
LEAST A YEAR, RIGHT?
HE COULD SAY MY OPPONENT IS
UNDER AN ETHICAL CLOUD.
THAT’S WHAT HE WANTED TO DO IN
THIS ELECTION.
THIS ELECTION. >> CONGRESSMAN DENNY HECK, THANK
YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US ON
THIS EVE OF WEEK 2 OF THE
HEARING SCHEDULE, VERY THICK