JOINING ME TONIGHT IS THE C.E.O.
OF THE ROBIN HOOD FOUNDATION, AND AUTHOR OF A NEW
BOOK, "FIVE DAYS."
PLEASE WELCOME, WES MOORE!
WES, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN, STEPHEN.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
>> Stephen: I'LL START WITH THE QUESTION I'M ASKING
EVERYBODY RIGHT NOW.
THERE'S SO MUCH GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY WITH THE CORONAVIRUS
PANDEMIC, PROTESTS IN THE STREETS.
THE, AGAIN, EXPOSED RAW NERVE AND WOUND OF RACIAL DIVISION IN
AMERICA.
HOW ARE YOU DOING?
>> HM.
UM, THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION.
UH, I'M FRUSTRATED.
AND I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY WHO LOOK LIKE
ME WHO ARE ANGRY, WHO ARE GRIEVING OR SCARED, AND,
FRANKLY, PRETTY EXHAUSTED.
AND EXHAUSTED BECAUSE THERE IS THIS THOUGHT AND BELIEF THAT THE
NAME THAT WE ARE CHANTING AND THE NAME THAT YOU ARE HEARING
WILL BE THE IMPETUS.
THAT WILL BE THE NAME.
THAT WILL BE THE ONE THAT YOU SEE REAL CHANGE UNTIL THE NEXT
NAME HAPPENS.
SO I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE'S A REAL LEVEL OF
FRUSTRATION.
>> Stephen: WE'RE ALL PRETTY SHOCKED BY THE PRESIDENT'S
INDICATION THAT HE WANTS TO RESPOND TO THE PROTESTS IN THE
STREETS RIGHT NOW, AND WHAT HE SEES AS VIOLENCE OR OVER-REACH
BY THE PROTESTERS WITH MILITARY ACTION TO DEPLOY THE U.S.
MILITARY INTO OUR CITIES.
AS SOMEBODY WHO SERVED IN AFGHANISTAN, ACTIVE-DUTY
MILITARY, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS, THAT ORDER WOULD MEAN TO
THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVE IN OUR MILITARY?
>> YEAH, I WAS-- I WAS, I WAS A CAPTAIN AND A PARATROOPER IN
AFGHANISTAN WITH THE 82nd AIRBORNE DIVISION.
I'VE SEEN WAR, AND WE DON'T NEED WAR.
WE NEED COMMUNITY, AND WE NEED FOR NERCH THIS NATION TO DO ALL
THAT THEY CAN TO CONFRONT THE REAL INJUSTICES AND INEQUITIES
THAT HAVE PLAGUED THIS COUNTRY ON THE BASIS OF RACE.
AND THE PROBLEM IS THAT WHEN YOU DRESS FOR CONFLICT, SOMETIMES
THAT BREEDS CONFLICT.
YOU KNOW, OF ALL THE TURMOIL THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE COUNTRY
THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE OVER THE PAST WEEK, TWO OF THE MOST
PEACEFUL PLACES, TWO OF THE MOST PRODUCTIVE PROTESTS WE HAVE HAD
HAVE BEEN IN NEWARK, NEW JERSEY, AND IN FLINT, MICHIGAN.
THESE ARE TWO COMMUNITIES WITH THE POVERTY IS REAL.
THESE ARE TWO COMMUNITIES WHERE THE NEGLECT IS REAL.
BUT THERE WAS NO RIOTING AND NO LOOTING, AND PEOPLE ASK WHY?
WHAT DID THEY HAVE IN COMMON?
HERE'S WHAT THEY HAD IN COMMON.
THE POLICE DEPARTMENT LARGELY LEFT THEIR BATONS AND THEIR
HELMETS AND THEIR SHIELDS AT THE POLICE STATION.
IN FACT, IN FLINT, THE SHERIFF SAID, "WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A
PARADE AND NOT A PROTEST."
AND SO I SHARE THE CALLS FOR PEACE, BUT THIS COLLECTIVE
EFFORT THAT WE ARE SEEING HAPPENING ALL OVER IS ABOUT
JUSTICE.
AND PEACE WILL NOT COME WITHOUT JUSTICE, AND JUSTICE CANNOT COME
FROM A TEAR GAS CANISTER OR FROM THE END OF A BATON.
>> Stephen: WHAT DOES THAT LEAD TO?
I GUESS I'M ASKING-- SOME PEOPLE MIGHT SAY, "WHY NOT DO THAT?"
WHAT IS THE DOWN SIDE TO SENDING IN, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE PRESIDENT
MIGHT SCRIBE AS "THE HAMMER?" >> YEAH I THINK BECAUSE WHEN
SOMEBODY OR SOMEONE THINKS THAT THE HAMMER IS COMING, IT'S GOING
TO ESCALATE TENSION.
YOU KNOW, WHEN WE CONTINUE TO MILITARIZE AND UP THE
MILITARIZATION OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, WE CAN'T EXPECT
THE PROTESTERS OR THE ACTIVISTS TO THEN JUST SIMPLY COW DOWN.
THAT'S NOT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS SITUATION.
AD IT'S ALSO A VERY UNFAIR ASK TO THE SOLDIERS AND THE SAILORS
AND THE AIRMEN AND THE MARINES M THAT THAT WE'RE GOING TO ASK TO
DO THIS.
I REMEMBER WHAT THAT WAS LIKE, GOING INTO COMMUNITIES THAT I
WAS NOT FAMILIAR WITH, GOING INTO PLACES THAT I DIDN'T-- I
WASN'T FAMILIAR WITH THE HISTORY OF THE CONTEMPT.
YOU KNOW, WALKING INTO PLACE WHERE'S THERE WAS THIS IDEA
SIMPLY BECAUSE I WAS WALKING IN-- I WAS WALKING IN WITH A
BLACK VEST AND KEVLAR AND M-4 ASKING PEOPLE TO TRUST US WHY
THAT DIDN'T NECESSARILY WORK.
SO THERE ARE REAL LEGAL RESTRICTIONS AS TO THE POLICE
FUNCTION THAT THE MILITARY CAN PERFORM ON U.S. SOIL, ONE.
BUT, ALSO, WE ARE, ONCE AGAIN, ASKING OUR MILITARY PERSONNEL TO
PERFORM AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK IN A WAY THAT IS UNFAIR TO THEM.
AND, FRANKLY, IS NOT GOING TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT IT IS THAT WE'RE
HOPING TO ACCOMPLISH FROM ALL THAT.
>> Stephen: THE LAST TIME THAT YOU AND I SPOKE WAS ON THE
RELEASE OF YOUR BOOK "THE OTHER WES MOORE."
THE NEW BOOK IS "FIVE DAYS," WHICH IS ABOUT THE FREDDIE GRAY
PROTEST IN BALTIMORE AFTER HE WAS KILLED AT THE HANDS OF THE
POLICE IN 2015.
WHAT'S THE BIGGEST TAKEAWAY FROM THOSE PROTESTS THAT YOU LEARNED
THAT COULD BE APPLIED TO THIS MOMENT?
>> WELL, ONE, I THINK THERE ARE SO MANY SIMILARITIES.
I REMEMBER EVEN JUST WRITING "FIVE DAYS" AND GOING OVER THESE
EIGHT PEOPLE THAT WE FOLLOWED OVER THIS FIVE-DAY PERIOD THAT
TOOK PLACE AROUND THE FUNERAL FOR FREDDIE GRAY AND THE UNREST
AND UPRISING THAT TOOK PLACE AROUND IT.
WE ARE LITERALLY RELIVING HISTORY RIGHT NOW WATCHING HOW
SIMILAR ALL OF THIS STUFF IS.
BUT I THINK THERE WERE A COUPLE OF REALLY BIG TAKEAWAYS THEY
TOOK FROM THAT, THAT ACTUALLY I'M THINKING OF APPLYING TO
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
YOU KNOW, ONE WAS THE THING THAT REALLY HELPED TO BRING THE
TEMPERATURE DOWN IN BALTIMORE THAT ENDED A LOT OF THE
PROTESTING, THAT BROUGHT THINGS TO A-- TO A CALM WAS ACTUALLY
WHEN CHARGES WERE BROUGHT.
WHEN THE STATE'S ATTORNEY AT THE TIME MARILYN MOSLEY BROUGHT
CHARGES AGAINST THE SIX OFFICERS, THAT ACTUALLY BROUGHT
EVERYTHING DOWN.
BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE FELT, WORK JUSTICE HAS ARRIVED.
I REMEMBER THE DAY SHE ANNOUNCED THE CHARGE POSITIVE THERE WAS
ALMOST A CELEBRATORY, EUPHORIA THAT EVOLVED.
WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THIS ONE, CHARGES WERE BROUGHT
RELATIVELY QUICKLY ON THE ONE OFFICER OVER IN MINNESOTA, OVER
IN MINNEAPOLIS.
AND IT DIDN'T-- THERE WAS NO DISSIPATION WHEN IT CAME TO THE
INTENSITY OF THE PROTESTS.
SOME PEOPLE SAY, "WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?"
AND I THINK FOR PART OF IT IS IS THAT FOR PROTESTS AND ACTIVISTS
RIGHT NOW THE ANSWER IS CHARGES AREN'T ENOUGH.
NOW, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN TERMS OF WHAT WE CAN DO NOW IS
WE STILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH OUR NORMAL PROCESS.
THERE WILL BE TRIALS, AND, YOU KNOW, I KNOW FOR MANY OF US THAT
WE'RE HOPING THAT BOTH WITH THE TRIALS THAT ARE-- THE CHARGES
HAVE BEEN ANNOUNCED BUT ALSO THERE WILL BE MORE CHARGES
COMING THAT WE CAN COME TO A CONCLUSION THAT WILL ACTUALLY
MEAN JUSTICE.
BUT I THINK THE THING MANY OF OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS CAN DO
RIGHT NOW-- OUR GOVERNORS, OUR MAYORS-- IS TO SAY EVEN IF IT'S
NOT ABOUT-- THIS ONE CASE HAS TO GO THROUGH THE COURT OF LAW.
WE UNDERSTAND THAT.
HOWEVER, JUSTICE OF ALL FORMS, JUSTICE IN THE WAY THAT WE'RE
THINKING ABOUT POLICE REFORM, JUSTICE IN THE WAY WE'RE
THINKING ABOUT ECONOMIC JUSTICE, IN SOCIAL JUSTICE, THOSE ARE
THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.
THOSE ARE THINGS THAT DO NOT NEED TO WAIT FOR A TRIAL.
THOSE ARE THINGS THAT DO NOT NEED TO WAIT FOR FUTURE
INDICTMENTS TO COME DOWN.
SO THOSE ARE THINGS THAT WE PRACTICALLY CAN GET DONE RIGHT
NOW THAT CAN TRULY BRING A LEVEL OF CALM SO WE CAN BEGIN THE
PROCESS OF BOTH HEALING AND MOVING FORWARD BETTER.
>> Stephen: AS THE C.E.O. OF THE ROBIN HOOD FOUNDATION IN NEW
YORK CITY, YOU-- YOU SPEND YOUR TIME WORKING TO REDUCE POVERTY
AND THE EFFECTS OF POVERTY IN THE CITY.
CITIES ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES ARE BEING AFFECTED BY
COVID-19 AT A MUCH MORE DEVASTATING SCALE THAN THE
MORE-RURAL, SUBURBAN POPULATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES.
WHAT DO YOU THINK, WHEN THIS IS OVER, THIS IS GOING TO MEAN TO
OUR CITIES WHO HAVE BEEN AFFECTED WITH SO MUCH ILLNESS
AND, SADLY, DEATH, BECAUSE OF COVID-19?
HOW DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO CHANGE OUR CITIES?
>> YEAH.
WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK ONE THING THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO
UNDERSTAND IS HOW COVID HAS HIT PEOPLE IN THE CITIES.
WHILE IT'S HIT EVERYONE IN THE CITIES, IT HAS NOT HIT EVERYBODY
EQUALLY.
AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO GOING TO HELP TO LEND AND FRAME UP ABOUT
WHAT WE THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR CITIES.
BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN DISPARITIES IN HEALTH THAT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED
TO EXIST FAR TOO LONG AND HAVE NOT JUST REVEALED THEMSELVES BUT
ALSO BEEN EXACERBATED.
YOU KNOW, BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES ARE DYING AT TWICE
THE RATE OF COVID-19, AND THAT'S REALLY BECAUSE WE'VE ALLOWED IT.
AND I THINK ABOUT IT WHERE, EVEN IN MY OWN CASE AND WHY THIS IS A
VERY PERSONAL THING FOR ME, YOU KNOW, MY FATHER, DIED WHEN I WAS
THREE YEARS OLD FROM A TREATABLE VIRUS BECAUSE THE HOSPITAL SENT
HIM HOME AND ASKED MY MOTHER IF HE WAS PRONE TO EXAGGERATIONS.
HIS CLOTHES WERE A LITTLE BIT TOO HAGGARD.
HIS MUSTACHE WAS A LITTLE BIT TO UNKEMPT.
THERE WAS AN ASSUMPTION THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE INSURANCE.
AND SO, WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW-- AND WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT
THE DISPARITIES IN THE WAY THAT COVID-19 IS IMPACTING
COMMUNITIES, BOTH ON THE HEALTH SIDE AND ALSO ON AN ECONOMIC
SIDE, IT'S STAGGERING.
YOU KNOW, CONSIDER THE FACT TH THAT, YOU KNOW, OVER 40% OF
PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY COULDN'T AFFORD A $400 SHOT.
AND THAT WAS PRIOR TO COVID-19.
22% OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS SINCE COVID-19 WERE
PEOPLE WHO WERE LIVING IN POVERTY BEFORE-- I.E., THESE
WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE WORKING AND STILL LIVING IN POVERTY, THE
WORKING POOR.
AND SO WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE WAY WE HAVE TO RETHINK OUR
CITIES AND RETHINK THE WAY THAT WE LIVE, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE
THAT PEOPLE HAVE A FIRM ENOUGH SUPPORT SYSTEM THAT WHEN THE
SINGULAR INDIVIDUAL SHOCKS HAPPEN-- MANY THAT THEY'RE NOT
RESPONSIBLE FOR AT ALL-- THAT THERE BE A WAY TO SUPPORT THEM,
THAT WE CAN MAKE SURE WE DON'T HAVE PEOPLE WORK FULL DAY'S WORK
AND STILL LIVING BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.
THAT WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE A HEALTHCARE SYSTEM THAT
DOES NOT LEAVE PEOPLE UNCOVERED, AND PARTICULARLY ONE THAT RELIES
SOLELY ON UNEMPLOYMENT.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE JUMPS IN UNEMPLOYMENT, WHAT IS ALSO NOW
HAPPENING IS YOU HAVE JUMPS IN PEOPLE WHO ARE UNINSURED.
THIS CREATES AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO RETHINK THIS, RETHINK THE
WAY WE'RE GOING TO STRUCTURE OUR CITIES, TRANSPORTATION ASSETS,
MOVING PEOPLE AROUND IN A STAVE WAY.
BUT THIS MOMENT IS ONE THAT WE HAVE TO CAPTURE NOW AND RETHINK
ABOUT WHAT-- HOW ARE WE GOING TO VIEW THE NEXT THREE AND THE FIVE
AND THE NEXT 10 YEARS FOR OUR EXISTENCE.
>> Stephen: WELL, WES, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
IT WAS GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> SO GOOD TO SEE YOU, STEPHEN.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, STAY SAFE.
>> Stephen: YOU, TOO.
THE BOOK, "FIVE DAYS" IS AVAILABLE JUNE 23.
WES MOORE, EVERYBODY!
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.