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CareerBuilder.com >>> CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENAS,
REQUEST FOR FOREIGN
INTERFERENCE, INCRIMINATING NEW
INFORMATION, OR AS WE CALL IT
AROUND HERE, FRIDAY, COVERING
THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE.
JOINING US HERE MY COLLEAGUE AND
FRIEND THE HOST OF "THE RACHEL
MADDOW SHOW."
MADDOW SHOW." AUTHOR AND OF BEST-SELLER
"BLOWOUT."
"BLOWOUT." IT WAS TERRIFYING AND THRILLING
TO FILL IN FOR YOU LAST NIGHT.
>> IT WAS GREAT.
>> STOP.
>> STOP. YOU’RE MAKING ME SWEAT IN MY
MIND.
MIND. BUT I MOSTLY WAS DYING BECAUSE I
WANTED TO HERE WHAT YOU SAID
ABOUT THE NEWS YESTERDAY.
SO I’M GOING TO GET TO TODAY,
BUT I’VE GOT TO START WITH
YESTERDAY.
YESTERDAY. VOLKER NINE AND A HALF HOURS,
ONE WITNESS, NINE DAYS IN AND
THESE FEEL LIKE NIXONIAN
RECORDS.
RECORDS. >> WITH EACH NEW STORY WE GET
NEW PROPER NOUNS, NEW PEOPLE WE
HAVE TO LEARN THEIR POSITION AND
WHETHER OR NOT THEY’VE BEEN
FIRED OR RESIGNED FROM, NEW
QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER THEY’RE
COMPLYING WITH SUBPOENAS.
IT’S JUST GETTING BIGGER AND
BIGGER AND BIGGER.
AND FOR ME THE WAY THAT I’M ABLE
TO KEEP TRACK OF IT IS IN TERMS
OF ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT,
RIGHT?
RIGHT? LIKE, THEY’RE GOING TO IMPEACH
THE PRESIDENT FOR ASKING A
FOREIGN POWER TO INTERVENE IN
THE ELECTION.
THE ELECTION. WE’VE GOT AN ADMISSION FROM THE
WHITE HOUSE THAT HE DID IT WHEN
THEY GAVE OUT -- WE’VE GOT THE
ADMISSION FROM THE PRESIDENT
THAT HE DID IT ON THE SOUTH
LAWN.
LAWN. SO THAT’S THE ARTICLE OF
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. ALL OF THE STUFF ABOUT THE TEXT
MESSAGES AND THE EMAILS AND THE
DOCUMENTS, BOTH IN THE STUFF
THAT THE INSPECTOR GENERAL FROM
THE STATE DEPARTMENT HANDED
OVER, ALL OF THIS STUFF AS
INTERESTING AS IT ALL IS, ALL IT
SHOWS IS THAT IT WASN’T JUST
SOME WHIM OF THE PRESIDENT.
HE PUT THESE ORDERS INTO EFFECT.
HE MADE THE ADMINISTRATION TRY
TO CARRY THIS OUT.
OKAY.
OKAY. SO THAT GOES TOWARD THAT INITIAL
ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT.
AND THEN ALL THIS STUFF ABOUT
HOW THE WHISTLE-BLOWER COMPLAINT
WAS HANDLED, HAVING THE
INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR THE
INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IN THERE
TODAY, THAT’S ALL THE SEPARATE
ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT WHICH
WILL BE ABOUT OBSTRUCTION,
WHETHER OR NOT THEY TRIED TO
COVER THIS UP.
AND THEN WE GOT A NEW PROBABLY A
NEW ARTICLE TODAY OR AT LEAST
SOMETHING TOWARD IT WITH THEM
TURNING THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY
TOWARD VICE PRESIDENT PENCE AS
WELL.
WELL. SO I FEEL LIKE I’M JUST TRYING
TO KEEP CATEGORIES OF
INFORMATION IN LINE WITHOUT
TRYING TO GET SO CAUGHT UP IN
ANY ONE NEW DETAIL.
>> I THINK THE DIFFERENCE, TOO,
I MEAN, WE BOTH SPENT 23 MONTHS
COVERING THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION, WHICH WAS SO
OPAQUE.
OPAQUE. AND I THINK WE BOTH THRILLED IN
ALL OF THE INVESTIGATIVE
JOURNALISM.
JOURNALISM. THIS IS LIKE THE WEB TV VERSION.
THIS IS LIKE A PUPPY CAM
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. YOU POINT A CAMERA ON THE
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. HE’S BASICALLY SUSAN GLASSER
WROTE LAST NIGHT
SELF-IMPEACHING.
SELF-IMPEACHING. SO THE WHISTLE-BLOWER CAME OUT.
BEFORE THEY FINISHED FIGURING
OUT HOW TO SMEAR, TRUMP HAD
CONFESSED.
CONFESSED. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE SPEED TO
WHICH THEY ARE CONFESSING AND
MOVING THEIR OWN GOAL POST?
>> THAT’S SORT OF AN INTERESTING
PUBLIC RELATIONS APPROACH TO
THIS.
THIS. INITIALLY, IF YOU SORT OF MAKE
AN ANALOGY OF THIS.
LET’S SAY THE PRESIDENT MOWED
SOMEONE DOWN AT A CROSSWALK,
FIRST IT WAS, NO, I DIDN’T, AND
THEN IT WAS, YEAH, I DID, AND
THEN IT WAS YEAH, OF COURSE I
DID.
DID. >> BECAUSE I’M AGAINST PEOPLE IN
THE CROSSWALK.
THE CROSSWALK. >> EXACTLY.
>> EXACTLY. AND THAT PERSON IN THE CROSSWALK
IS A BAD PERSON.
AND ALSO I DON’T BELIEVE IN
CROSSWALKS.
CROSSWALKS. REPUBLICANS ARE LIKE WE’VE
ALWAYS BEEN AGAINST CROSSWALKS.
I MEAN, THIS IS A TACTIC.
I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
RUSSIAN WRITERS SAY ABOUT THEIR
OWN EXPERIENCE UNDER PUTIN IS
THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT HE DOES IS THAT HE GETS
ACCUSED OF SOMETHING, AND IF
DENYING IT DOESN’T WORK, HE THEN
PROCLAIMS IT TO BE A VIRTUE
RATHER THAN A CRIME.
AND THAT IS THE MOMENT THAT
WE’RE IN.
WE’RE IN. AND REPUBLICANS JUST HAVE TO
DECIDE IF THEY’RE GOING TO HELP.
>> WELL, I MEAN, LOOK, YOU AND I
BECAME FRIENDS WHEN WE BELIEVED
IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF
POLICIES.
POLICIES. THAT WAS THE SUBSTANCE OF
POLITICAL TELEVISION AND
POLITICAL DEBATE.
POLITICAL DEBATE. THE SIDES SEEMED TO HAVE MELTED
INTO SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE
DISINFORMATION AND
DISINFORMATION AND TRUTH-SEEKING.
TRUTH-SEEKING. I’M NOT EVEN SURE THE TRUTH HAS
A SEAT AT THE TABLE.
I THINK THE DEMOCRATS ARE
SEEKING IT.
SEEKING IT. AND THEN I THINK THE REPUBLICANS
FEEL LIKE THEY ARE PART OF THE
DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN.
DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN. THERE’S A STORY IN THE "WALL
STREET JOURNAL" THAT CAME OUT
BEFORE WE CAME ON THE AIR THAT
REPUBLICAN SENATOR RON JOHNSON
HAD ALSO HEARD OF A QUID PRO
QUO.
QUO. THAT IS WHAT THE DIPLOMATS
OBVIOUSLY BELIEVED THEY WERE
TRYING TO MANAGE AROUND.
AND THE EVIDENCE THAT’S EMERGING
CERTAINLY SUPPORTS A QUID PRO
QUO.
QUO. BUT I WONDER IF YOU THINK THE
REPUBLICAN DEFENSE WILL GO TO
ALL FOREIGN POLICY AS A QUID PRO
QUO.
QUO. I MEAN, IS THAT HOW QUICKLY
THEY’RE CHANGING THE SORT OF
THE --
THE -- >> IT’S A GOOD WAY TO SET IT UP.
I THINK MOST IMPORTANT FOR US
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IN TERMS OF
THINKING ABOUT WHAT’S GONE WRONG
HERE AND WHETHER OR NOT
SOMETHING OUGHT TO BE PUNISHED
HERE AND HOW SEVERE THE
PUNISHMENT OUGHT TO BE FOR THE
PERPETRATORS IS THAT THE QUID
PRO QUO DOESN’T REALLY MATTER.
IT’S AN AGGRAVATING FACTOR BUT
THAT’S NOT IT.
SOLICITING SOMETHING FROM A
FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO HELP YOU
IN YOUR ELECTION CAMPAIGN IS AN
IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE AND IS ALSO
A CRIME.
A CRIME. IF THE PRESIDENT HAS DONE THAT
WHICH HE HAS.
WE’VE SEEN HIM DO IT ON TV.
WE’VE SEEN WHITE HOUSE NOTES
PROVING THAT HE DID IT IN
PRIVATE AS WELL.
IF THE PRESIDENT DID THAT, THAT
IS WHAT HE WILL BE IMPEACHED
FOR.
FOR. IF THERE ARE OTHER MEMBERS OF
THE ADMINISTRATION WHO WERE
EMPLOYED FOR THAT PURPOSE, THEY
SHOULD ALSO BE IMPEACHED OR
POTENTIALLY PROSECUTED.
POTENTIALLY PROSECUTED. AND THAT’S IT.
NOW IF PART OF THE WAY THEY WERE
SEEKING THAT INFORMATION WAS
ALSO TRYING TO CARROT AND STICK
HERE BY ALSO TRYING TO THREATEN
THAT FOREIGN ENTITY THAT IF THEY
DIDN’T DO THIS, THEN THEY’D BE
SORRY.
SORRY. WELL, THAT MAKES IT THAT MUCH
WORSE.
WORSE. BUT IT’S LITERALLY JUST AN
AGGRAVATING FACTOR.
AGGRAVATING FACTOR. I WILL SAY WITH SENATOR JOHNSON,
GOD BLESS HIM.
THE ONE THING THE PRESIDENT HAD
GOING FOR HIM IN THOSE TEXT
MESSAGES WAS AMBASSADOR SONDLAND
SAYING VERY ON FISHSLY IN A
BRAND-NEW TONE.
BRAND-NEW TONE. >> HE CAUGHT HIS LAWYER.
>> HAVING SMOKING WITH COUNSEL,
I WANT TO BE CLEAR THAT THERE IS
NO CRIME IN HERE.
THERE’S DEFINITELY BEEN NO
CRIME.
CRIME. >> THERE IS NO VIOLATION OF QUID
PRO QUO.
PRO QUO. >> IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM PLEASE
CALL MY POMPEO.
THAT’S THE ONLY THING THE
PRESIDENT HAD TO HANG ONTO.
>> FIVE HOURS LATER.
>> AND RON JOHNSON COMES OUT
TODAY AND SAYS THAT GUY
SONDLAND.
SONDLAND. HE TOLD ME THERE’S A QUID PRO
QUO.
QUO. [ LAUGHTER ]
>> THIS IS IT.
AND SO THE SOURCE FOR RON
JOHNSON BELIEVING THAT THE
DIPLOMATS BELIEVED THERE WAS A
QUID PRO QUO THAT THE MILITARY
AID FOR OUR ALLY WAS TIED UP ON
DOING POLITICAL FAVORS FOR THE
PRESIDENT, CAME FROM THE GUY WHO
DISAVOWS BILL TAYLOR, THE CAREER
DIPLOMAT.
DIPLOMAT. >> THE ONE GUY WHO TRUMP
THEORETICALLY HAS ON THIS SIDE
IN THESE INTERNAL DOCUMENTS THAT
WE’VE NOW SEEN HANDED OVER FROM
COAL OVER.
COAL OVER. ACCORDING TO RON JOHNSON, THAT
GUY CONFESSED TO HIM AND TOLD
THE PRESIDENT HE IS LOOKING FOR
A QUID PRO QUO FOR THE MILITARY
AID.
AID. IF THAT’S THE GUY WHO THE
PRESIDENT’S BEST HOPES ARE FOR
MAKING THIS QUID PRO QUO AWAY,
WHICH, AGAIN, DOESN’T REALLY
MATTER, IT’S JUST THE ICING ON
THE CAKE, I THINK THE WHITE
HOUSE DEFENSE HERE, WE SHOULD
EXPECT TO BE CHAOS AND
OBFUSCATION.
OBFUSCATION. >> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ALL
THE OTHER PEOPLE BECAUSE WE
FOCUS ON THE PRESIDENT’S
CONDUCT.
CONDUCT. THE PRESIDENT IS THE ONE BEING
IMPEACHED, IT WOULD APPEAR.
BUT THIS WOULD APPEAR TO BE A
CONSPIRACY IN WHICH THE LIST OF
WITNESSES WHO ARE GOING TO END
UP ON CAPITOL HILL IS LONGER,
IT’S FASTER.
IT’S FASTER. ONE OF THE IMPEDIMENTS IT SEEMED
WITH MUELLER IS THAT YOU
COULDN’T GET WITNESSES LIKE DON
McGAHN UP TO CAPITOL HILL.
DONALD TRUMP NEVER SAT FOR A
DEPOSITION.
DEPOSITION. IN THIS INSTANCE YOU’VE ALREADY
GOT ONE DIPLOMAT WHO WAS THERE
FOR TEN HOURS RELEASED ALL THIS
EVIDENCE.
EVIDENCE. IT WOULD APPEAR WE HAVE A ROAD
MAP FROM THE WHISTLE-BLOWER AND
FROM VOLKER’S TESTIMONY
YESTERDAY FOR MORE WITNESSES.
>> WE ALSO HAVE THE DEFENSE
DEPARTMENT GENERAL COUNSEL
COMING OUT AND SAYING THAT THE
DEFENSE DEPARTMENT WILL
COOPERATE AND RETAIN ALL RECORDS
AND MAKE SURE THAT WE’RE
COMPLETELY COMPLYING WITH THE
DEMANDS OF THIS IMPEACHMENT
INQUIRY TO THE EXTENT THAT THE
MILITARY AID IS PART OF WHAT’S
IMPLICATING HERE.
IMPLICATING HERE. INTERESTINGLY RICK PERRY AT
LEAST IT BEING REPORTED THAT HE
WAS RESIGNING ANNOUNCED THAT THE
DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY WOULD ALSO
COMPLY WITH THIS AND WOULD
RETAIN THEIR RECORDS.
RICK PERRY’S OWN TRIP TO UKRAINE
WILL BE PART OF THIS IN THE
MIDDLE OF WHAT’S INTERROGATED.
IT’S ALL HAPPENING AT ONCE.
I MEAN, THERE WILL BE A LOT OF
DOCUMENTS TO REVIEW.
THERE WILL BE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO
HEAR FROM.
HEAR FROM. BUT AGAIN THAT’S GOING TO BE
ABOUT WHO ELSE GETS IN TROUBLE
BESIDES THE PRESIDENT, AND
THAT’S GOING TO BE ABOUT
ADDITIONAL ARTICLES OF
IMPEACHMENT RELATED TO
OBSTRUCTION.
OBSTRUCTION. REMEMBER, IN WATERGATE, WAS LIKE
40 PEOPLE WHO WERE INDICTED OR
SENTENCED TO PRISON.
AND NOT ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE
BURGLARS AND NOT ALL OF THOSE
PEOPLE WORKED IN THE OVAL
OFFICE.
OFFICE. BUT WHEN IT BECAME WHITE HOUSE
AND ADMINISTRATION POLICY, NOT
ONLY TO CARRY OUT THAT CRIME BUT
THEN TO COVER IT UP, IT ENDED UP
INVOLVING A LOT OF PEOPLE AND
ENDING ALL OF THOSE CAREERS AND
PUTTING SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE IN
FEDERAL PRISON.
FEDERAL PRISON. >> AND I WOULD IMAGINE A LOT OF
THOSE PEOPLE, MIKE PENCE, MIKE
POMPEO, VOLKER, ALL HAVE
CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEYS.
>> IF THEY DON’T, THEY SHOULD.
I MEAN, CABINET OFFICIALS DON’T
HAVE THE SAME IMMUNITY FROM
PROSECUTION THAT ANYBODY ELSE
DOES.
DOES. AND IT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE
ARE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT ON
MY SHOW TONIGHT IS TO WHETHER OR
NOT VICE PRESIDENTS DO.
THE IMPEACHMENT IS EXTENDED TO
VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE AND
THAT’S A VERY IMPORTANT STEP IN
TERMS OF POLITICALLY AND TO
THESE GUYS.
THESE GUYS. >> THE PEOPLE SORT OF PUTTING
OUT THAT HE DIDN’T KNOW ANYTHING
ABOUT THE MILITARY AID AND THEN
SORT OF PENCE CAME OUT AND LIKE
TRUMP CONFESSED TO THE SAME KIND
OF CONDUCT.
OF CONDUCT. >> AND IT DOES NOT HELP MIKE
PENCE THAT THE WHITE HOUSE, NOT
MIKE PENCE’S AIDES BUT PEOPLE
WHO WORK FOR DONALD TRUMP ARE
DUMPING AS MUCH OF THIS ON MIKE
PENCE AS WE CAN.
>> OF COURSE, IF WE’RE GOING
DOWN, YOU’RE COMING DOWN WITH