civilians remain, only five to
ten residents are leaving each
day.
Joining me is Leon Panetta to
talk about this.
Mr. Secretary, all great to have
you on.
It does seem to be a critical
time for Ukrainian forces around
bakhmut.
>> There's no question that
there's psychological impact
when the Russians are able to
gain anything in the Ukraine
these days.
I'm not sure it's that important
a strategic military target
because it's been destroyed by
the Russians and turned into
ashes and so I understand the
game of trying to gain any
territory you can.
But I think this is more of a
preliminary step for both sides
in terms of getting ready for
the next chapter in this war,
which is going to involve some
serious offensives on both
sides, not just Russia but I
think Ukraine will conduct an
offensive and I think it's going
to be a critical moment that
will tell us a lot about the
future of this war.
>> Absolutely.
And let's talk about China.
It came up a lot on the Sunday
talk shows earlier today.
I have to ask in a draft budget
report released this morning,
China unveiled its annual
military budget which showed an
increase to $224 billion.
China keeps ramping things up on
the military front.
How much of a concern does this
need to be for the intelligence
community, for the Pentagon
moving forward, do you think?
>> Well, we have to pay
attention to what China is
doing.
Obviously China is not just a
competitor in the world but in
many ways they're an adversary
in the world.
And we have to pay attention to
the amount of money that they're
putting into defense, into
space, what they're doing in
terms of militarizing the south
China sea.
There are threats to Taiwan.
So it is of concern.
And our intelligence officials,
our military officials have to
constantly analyze what steps
China is taking in order to be
prepared to counter whatever
they do.
Look, the only way to deal with
China is from strength.
So it's very important that the
United States make very clear
where the lines are in terms of
Taiwan, in terms of the south
China sea.
In terms of just their defense
buildup and where it should go.
You would hope we could
reestablish some kind of
dialogue with China ultimately
but we're not there yet and I
suspect we're probably going to
go through a very tense period
in our relationship before
hopefully we're able to talk to
one another.
>> And I hate to ask you about
politics but let me do that.
Former president Donald Trump
won the CPAC straw poll,
emphasized it's unscientific.
He is leading in just about all
the Republican polls and it's
early in the process.
What message would it send to
the world if trump were to
somehow able to get back into
the white house?
You are in addition being a wise
elder when it comes to national
security and intelligence
matters, you know this game as
well as just about anybody,
former white house chief of
staff and so on.
Do you think trump can do it
again and what does that say to
the world that he's even in this
position right now?
>> Well, I don't think we should
kid ourselves.
I think the reality is that he
has support in the Republican
party and that he could very
well be the candidate for the
Republican party.
I think it would be a terrible
message to send to the world if,
in fact, he is a candidate again
for president of the united
States because I believe that
his whole first -- America first
approach to foreign policy, his
desire to essentially withdraw
from the world in terms of a
leadership position for the
United States would be
devastating to our foreign
policy at this point in time in
the 21st century.
Look, in the end I really -- I
really believe that he's a loser
and that even if he gets the
nomination, he will lose.
But the mere fact that he would
be nominated by the Republican
party would be a scary step in
the 21st century.
>> And just a quick follow, I
think it would definitely mean a
big change in how the U.S. Deals
with Ukraine.
>> Oh, my god.
You know, we have just gone
through a few years where
fortunately we've been able to
reestablish the United States'
role as a world leader.
And I think president Biden
basically said to the world that
the United States is back and
he's kind of -- he's made very
clear that the United States
working with our allies are
going to be unified in
confronting adversaries like
Putin and China and North Korea,
Iran and others.
And we have to be unified in the
world.
Look, it's a dangerous world.
It's going to require the united
States world leadership, and the
last thing the United States
needs do is to elect somebody
like trump who doesn't want to
be a world leader, who ignores
the rest of the world.
It would weaken the united