John: Almost from the moment Iran freed the U.S. Hostages in 1981, just minutes after
president Ronald Reagan took the oath of office, there have been suspicions about a deal between
the Reagan campaign and Iran.
The hostage crisis had consumed
the last year of the Carter
presidency, contributing to a
perception of weakness.
Now Ben Barnes, a prominent
democratic politician at the
time, tells the New York Times
he was a witness to Republican
efforts to prevent the hostages
from being freed before election
day.
Gary sick was the Iran expert on
president Carter's national
security council.
He wrote a 1991 book making the
case that there was a deal,
called "October surprise."
Mr. Sick, when you read what Ben
Barnes said, what was your
reaction?
Gary: My reaction was pretty
straightforward.
This was the first high-level
official of any government that
had specifically identified the
fact that the Reagan
administration was trying to
make contact with Iran and tell
them that they should keep the
hostages until after the
election of Jimmy Carter -- the
election which Reagan was
running against Jimmy Carter.
We had pretty well figured that
out.
We had a bunch of evidence that
that was the case.
But this is the first, most
credible of all of the sources
that have talked about this
story to this point.
John: How does this fit in with
the research that you did for
your book, "October surprise"?
Gary: My book had dozens and
dozens of sources, but a lot of
them were people you would not
trust.
He would not want to go to a
birthday party with these guys.
Arms dealers, people who were on
the fringes of all the black
operations going on around the
world.
So, their word, which was pretty
much that the Republicans wanted
to keep the hostages in place
until after the election, that V
iew was held by a great many
people, and a lot of people in
the Middle East.
Of course I'm quite accustomed
working in the Middle East to
the fact that there are
conspiracy theories going on all
the time.
So I did not pay much attention
to them in the beginning.
But the evidence began to be
overwhelming that something was
going on here.
But the problem was there was no
smoking gun.
John: There was a key moment in
Iran on the morning of election
day in the United States.
In 1989, Jimmy Carter spoke to
Jim Lehrer about that.
>> There was a flurry of
activity in the Iranian
parliament, that they were going
to vote on whether or not to
release the hostages just before
the votes were cast in this
country.
The parliament decided, under
khomeini's pressure, that they
would not release the hostages.
And this devastating, negative
news about hostages swept
through the country on election
I've always been convinced that day.
this was a major factor.
John: The hardline position by
Iranians on election day then
January 15, five days before
president Reagan was
inaugurated, you have written
that the Iranian position
changed dramatically.
Was that suspicious to you?
Gary: At the time, as I say, we
were really tied up.
It was a hectic time, everything
was happening at once.
But I later talked with the
secretary of the treasury in
Iran in doing research for my
book.
And he said he had actually been
one of the people in Iran who
wanted to see the hostages
released.
He thought it was a mistake to
hold the hostages.
But he said when he found out
what kind of terms they were
offering in this last second
deal to get the hostages out of
there, he changed his mind
because he said Iran should not
have had to pay a price that
high.
They were actually paying off
loans that cost them an enormous
amount of money.
Basically they lost in the order
of $8 billion in that trade.
And at the very last second they
changed their terms totally, and
basically were willing to make
sensations we would have never
even asked for.
John: William Casey was the
campaign chairman in 1980 in the
Reagan administration, and he
was the director of the CIA.
Based on what you know about it,
is it conceivable that he could
have been behind all of this?
Gary: We know for a fact that he
actually made a trip to Madrid,
where we believe he met with
Iranian officials.
But again, we can't tie that
down beyond the dates and the
times.
We know that he sent his
emissaries out talking to the
Palestinians, asking them to
again touch with the Iranians
and deliver this message that
they did not want the hostages
released and that they would pay
a price for it.
A lot of things happened around
the Casey during that period of
John: As we know, president time.
Carter is in hospice care.
Ben Barnes said one reason he
wanted to speak up is because
the president is near the end of
his life.
How do you think the president
is going to respond to this?
Gary: I have talked to president
Carter a number of times about
this, but very generally.
Basically, as far as I know, he
believes that this did, in fact,
happen, and has become as much
of a believer as I am.
I think he was also skeptical at
the beginning, but I think he
has come to believe that this
really did happen.
And people are -- the amazing
thing is that Mr. Barnes waited
for 43 years to tell his story.
And it's really too bad, because
I think the American people
would really have deserved to
know if something like this
happens, if an election is being
fixed, we ought to know about
it.
And I am sorry that this story
did not come out much, much sooner.
John: Fascinating bit of history.
Gary sick, thank you very much.
Gary: Pleasure to be with you.