>> JOINING US NOW DONALD TRUMP'S
FORMER ATTORNEY MICHAEL COHEN,
ALSO THE AUTHOR REVENGE HOW
DONALD TRUMP WEAPONIZED THE U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AGAINST
HIS CRITICS AND THE HOST OF THE
PODCAST MEA CULPA AND POLITICAL
BREAKDOWN INDICTMENT WATCH.
AS WE LOOK AT THIS NEW
SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT, AS SARA
WENT THROUGH THAT IMPORTANT
TIMELINE THERE, WHAT STRUCK ME
IS THAT ALLEGEDLY HAPPENED WHAT
WALT NAUTA SHIFTING THE TRAVEL
PLANS ABRUPTLY, GOING DOWN TO
MAR-A-LAGO TO TALK TO FOLKS DOWN
THERE.
IN YOUR ROLE WHEN YOU WORKED FOR
THE FORMER PRESIDENT, IS THIS
SOMETHING YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN
DISPATCHED TO DO?
>> OH, THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT
IT.
THIS IS SO PART OF THE TRUMP
PLAYBOOK THAT WHEN I HEARD IT ON
TELEVISION IT DIDN'T SURPRISE ME
AT ALL.
EVERYBODY RUNNING AROUND.
YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE CARE OF THE
BOSS, DO WHAT THE BOSS SAYS.
YOU KNOW, YOU MAY REMEMBER I
SAID ON THIS PROGRAM A LONG TIME
AGO WHEN THE INDICTMENT FIRST
STARTED COMING OUT THAT THIS IS
NOT -- THIS IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR
DONALD TRUMP TO WANT TO GET RID
OF DOCUMENTATION TO DELETE
STUFF.
AND THE REAL QUESTION THAT WE
HAVE TO ASK IS, WHAT DOCUMENTS
DOES HE HAVE?
WHAT DOCUMENTS DID HE SHOW TO
PEOPLE?
YOU KNOW, IS THIS HIS -- IS IT
HIS EGO?
WAS IT IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO
SHOW OFF WITH LETTERS LIKE FROM
VLADIMIR PUTIN OR KIM JONG-UN?
AND THE ANSWER TO THAT IS, NO.
AND I SAY TO THAT, I BELIEVE
THAT THERE IS MORE NEFARIOUS
REASONS THAT DONALD IS KEEPING
THESE DOCUMENTS, AND I'M SHOCKED
AND I'M APPALLED THAT THERE IS
STILL PEOPLE THAT ARE SUPPORTING
HIM.
WHEN YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT HE
IS PLACING OUR NATIONAL SECURITY
IN COMPLETE CHAOS SIMPLY FOR HIS
OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT.
>> AND IF THERE IS MORE, IT WILL
BE INTERESTING IF THOSE COME
OUT, YOU RAISED INTERESTING AND
IMPORTANT CONCERNS, AS YOU POINT
OUT.
I WANT TO GET YOUR TAKE ON A
COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS BECAUSE
AS YOU SAY THIS IS A PAGE FROM
THE PLAYBOOK.
ONE THING THAT STANDS OUT AS
RATHER UNUSUAL IS A 24-MINUTE
PHONE CALL.
CAN YOU RECALL DONALD TRUMP
HAVING A 24-MINUTE PHONE CALL
WITH SOMEONE?
IF SO, WHY WOULD HE STAY ON THE
PHONE SO LONG?
>> YEAH, I HAVE HAD 24-MINUTE
PHONE CALLS WITH DONALD --
>> BUT WHEN YOU WERE HIS
ATTORNEY?
>> IT WAS SOMETIMES PERSONAL,
SOMETIMES IT WAS -- IT WAS OVER
ISSUES THAT NEEDED TO BE
RESOLVED.
AND IT WOULD GO SOMETIMES INTO
LENGTHY DISCUSSION IN TERMS IT
OF WHAT HE WANTED DONE WITH
PRETTY, YOU KNOW, WITH REAL
SPECIFICITY, WHICH IS WHY IT
WOULD TAKE LONGER.
24 MINUTES OR DONALD IS AN
ETERNITY.
IT DOESN'T HAPPEN OFTEN.
SO IT'S, OBVIOUSLY, ABOUT
SOMETHING THAT IS OF REAL
SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPORTANCE.
>> SO SIGNIFICANT, BUT NOT
ENTIRELY SURPRISING TO YOU IT
WOULD LAST THAT LONG.
LOYALTY, AS MANY OF US HAVE
DISCUSSED WITH YOU AND SO MANY
PEOPLE HAVE ALSO DISCUSSED IS
KEY FOR DONALD TRUMP.
I WANT TO GO THROUGH SOME OF
WHAT WE LEARNED IN THE
SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT WHICH
ALLEGES THAT IN THE WEEKS AFTER
THE FBI FOUND THE DOCUMENTS, IN
THE STORAGE ROOM THAT WALT NAUTA
REACHED OUT TO A TRUMP EMPLOYEE
TO ASK, QUOTE, SOMEONE JUST
WANTS TO MAKE SURE CARLOS IS
GOOD, REFERRING TO CARLOS DE
OLIVEIRA, WHO AGAIN IS THE NEW
DEFENDANT NOW WITH THE
SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT.
THE EMPLOYEE ALLEGEDLY TOLD
NAUTA THAT DE OLIVEIRA WAS LOYAL
AND WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING TO
AFFECT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH
TRUMP.
THE INFORMATION WAS RELAYED AND
ACCORDING TO THE INDICTMENT THAT
VERY SAME DAY TRUMP CALLED DE
OLIVEIRA TOLD HIM HE WOULD GET
HIM AN ATTORNEY.
I KNOW YOU TALKED ABOUT WHAT
YOUR LOYALTY TO DONALD TRUMP
COST YOU.
WHAT WOULD YOU TELL CARLOS DE
OLIVEIRA IN THIS MOMENT?
>> I'D -- SADLY, I HAVE MADE
THIS STATEMENT TO MANY DIFFERENT
PEOPLE, STARTING WITH RUDY
GIULIANI, WALT NAUTA.
RUN.
RUN FAST.
FIRST OF ALL, HE IS NOT GOING TO
GET YOU AN ATTORNEY.
HE IS NOT GOING TO PAY FOR AN
ATTORNEY.
YOU MAY SEE THAT WITH THE
SETTLEMENT I WAS ENGAGED IN.
HE IS NOT GOING TO PAY FOR IT
UNLESS YOU STAY ON MESSAGE.
IF YOU STAY ON MESSAGE.
YOU WILL END UP BEHIND BARS.
THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, YOU
KNOW?
DONALD ALSO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND
THAT HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND
TECHNOLOGY AT ALL.
WHEN HE THINKS THAT, YOU KNOW,
YOU CAN JUST DELETE IT FROM THE
LOCAL SERVER, WHAT HE IS MISSING
IS THE FACT THAT THERE IS
ANOTHER SERVER, THE MAIN SERVER,
WHICH WAS HELD AT THE TRUMP
ORGANIZATION PROPERTY THAT
SOMEHOW EVERYTHING WAS
DOWNLOADED, TOO.
AND THE FA KTCT THAT HE WANTED
GET RID OF THIS INFORMATION, IN
LAW IS CALLED SPOILIATION, AFTER
HE HAD A SUBPOENA, THIS IS
DAMAGING STUFF.
IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE DAMAGING
TO THAT 36, 37% OF THE GOP
LOYALISTS THAT NO MATTER WHAT HE
DOES, THEY ARE STANDING BEHIND
HIM.
I WONDER IF THEY WILL STAND
BEHIND HIM IF, GOD FORBID, THERE
IS ANOTHER ATTACK ON AMERICA AS
A DIRECT RESULT OF HIS
NEGLIGENCE.
>> YOU KNOW, AS WE LOOK TO SEE
HOW THIS PLAYS OUT AND WHAT THE
REACTION IS, ESPECIALLY TONIGHT
IN IOWA, YOU LAY OUT THE
CONSEQUENCES THAT YOU HAVE FELT,
OBVIOUSLY, FROM YOUR LOYALTY,
AND WHAT OTHERS HAVE DEALT WITH.
SOMEHOW IT THAT DONALD TRUMP
CONTINUES TO BRING PEOPLE INTO
HIS ORBIT AND TO GARNER THAT
LOYALTY?
WHAT IS HE PROVIDE -- I MEAN,
MAYBE THE PROMISE OF AN
ATTORNEY, WHICH YOU SAY HE IS
NOT GOING TO PAY THE FEES?
WHAT IS IT?
WHAT DO YOU THINK HE IS
PROMISING PEOPLE?
>> LOOK, IT'S NOT AS DEVIOUS AS
YOU MIGHT THINK.
THE MAN IS A CULT LEADER.
PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
AND HE HAS MANAGED, YOU KNOW, TO
INDOCTRINATE INTO THIS CULT MANY
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.
MANY MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WHO
ARE PARTING WITH THEIR
HARD-EARNED DOLLARS TO GIVE TO A
BILLIONAIRE SO HE CAN FIX AN OLD
757 OR PAY HIS OWN LEGAL FEES OR
OWN RESPONSIBILITIES.
WHY WE DO IT?
WHY I DID IT?
I DON'T HAVE AN -- I DON'T HAVE
A GOOD ENOUGH ANSWER TO GIVE TO
YOU THAT WOULD SATISFY ANYONE
MYSELF, OR EVEN MY FAMILY, THAT
STILL ASK ME THE SAME QUESTION.
THERE IS SOMETHING -- THERE IS
SOMETHING ABOUT OURSELVES THAT
WE ARE FOLLOWING THAT I CAN'T
EXPLAIN.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE
PROBABLY NEED A CULT EXPERT TO
EXPLAIN ON WHAT IS IT THAT THEY
SAY AND WHAT IS IT THAT THEY DO
AND WHAT WE'RE MISSING OURSELVES
THAT CAUSES US TO STAY IN THIS
CULT.
>> MICHAEL COHEN, APPRECIATE THE
INSUGT.
THANK YOU.
>> CNN SENIOR ANALYST, FORMER
ASSISTANT ATTORNEY, ELIE HONIG,
ALES A GRIFFIN AND CBA POLITICAL
COMMENTATOR AND FORMER SPECIAL
ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT OBAMA VAN
JONES.
ALYSSA, BECAUSE YOU WORKED IN
THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE SO CLOSELY
WITH HIM BUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP
WITH TRUMP WAS DIFFERENT THAN
MICHAEL COHEN, OBVIOUSLY, WHO
HAS HAD LITIGATION WITH HIM, TO
YOU SORT OF SECOND WHAT YOU JUST
HEARD?
>> VERY MUCH SO.
I AM STILL SHOCKED, YOU KNOW, TO
THIS DAY HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE
LOYAL TO DONALD TRUMP.
HE HAS AN AIR ABOUT HIM THAT
KIND OF COMMANDS LOYALTY, MANDS
PEOPLE WANTING HIS APPROVAL.
I WAS HONESTLY VERY SHOCKED WHEN
I WENT TO WORK FOR HIM IN THE
WEST WING AND SAW HOW MANY
PEOPLE WANTED HIS APPROVAL AND
THERE WAS LIKE LACK OF KIND OF
WANTING TO ADVISE HIM AT TIMES
BECAUSE YOU MIGHT GET ON HIS BAD
SIDE.
HE IS GOOD AT KEEPING PEOPLE IN
LINE.
HE USES INCENTIVES.
HE KEEPS PEOPLE ON THE TEAM AND
LOYALTY AND THIS WAS BY DESIGN
WITH THESE INDIVIDUALS.
TEXTBOOK DONALD TRUMP.
HE IS GOING TO LOWER LEVEL
PEOPLE ASKING TO DO HIS DIRTY
WORK, PEOPLE WHO AREN'T GOING TO
HAVE THE CONSTITUTION TO STAND
UP TO A FORMER MAYBE FUTURE
PRESIDENT AND HE KNOWS WHAT HE
IS DOING WHEN HE DOES THAT.
>> AND AS WE WATCH THIS PLAY
OUT, WHAT'S INTERESTING, TOO,
WITH ALL OF THESE NEW DETAILS
THAT WE'RE HEARING, IS HOW IT IS
THIS PLAYBOOK, RIGHT, THAT
MICHAEL TALKED ABOUT, THAT YOU
ARE SAYING IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU
SAW.
ELIE, DOES THAT FIGURE IN AT ALL
IN THIS CASE INTO A PATTERN
HERE?
>> WELL, IT'S INTERESTING.
WHEN WE CONSIDER THE NOTION OF
LOYALTY, BECAUSE WHEN WE ARE
LOOKING AT WHAT IS WALT NAUTA
GOING TO DO, WHAT IS CARLOS DE
OLIVEIRA, THE NEW DEFENDANT,
GOING TO DO, THE DECISION
WHETHER TO COOPERATE WITH THE
GOVERNMENT, WHICH I HAVE BEEN ON
OTHER SIDE OF MANY TIMES, IS
REALLY COMPLICATED AND COMES
DOWN TO SOMETIMES A FINANCIAL
DECISION, A PHILOSOPHICAL
DECISION, A MORAL DECISION, AND
I THINK WHAT DONALD TRUMP MAY
HAVE RECOGNIZED NOW, WHICH
MICHAEL IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF,
IT'S HARD TO BREAK AWAY FROM
DONALD TRUMP AND SORT OF COME
CLEAN AND FIND YOURSELF ON THE
OTHER SIDE BECAUSE THERE IS A
PENALTY, RIGHT.
MICHAEL COHEN WAS ATTACKED.
MICHAEL COHEN LOST A LOT OF
MONEY.
MICHAEL COHEN WENT TO JAIL.
DONALD TRUMP HASN'T AS OF THIS
POINT.
AND I THINK DONALD TRUMP PERHAPS
MADE THE CALCULATION THAT IT'S
GOING BE HARDER FOR THESE GUYS
WHO ARE MAINTENANCE WORKERS AND
THEY WON'T HAVE THE MEANS, THE
MOTIVE, AND SO IT'S SAFER IF I
DO MY DIRTY WORK THROUGH THEM,
THROUGH PEOPLE WHO ARE PERHAPS
MORE HEAD STRONG OR BETTER
POSITIONED LIKE MICHAEL COHEN.
HE MAY HAVE HAD ADJUSTMENT IN
STRATEGY THERE.
>> YOU WENT TO A PRETTY GOOD LAW
SCHOOL.
MR. YALE.
>> OH?
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK -- WHAT DID
YOU THINK WHEN YOU READ THE
SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT SORT OF
ON THE LEGAL SIDE AND THEN ON
THE POLITICS OF WHAT THIS DOES
IN THE PARTY?
>> I WANT TO STAY WITH THE HUMAN
FACTOR.
I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S TOUGH IF
YOU ARE JUST A REGULAR EVERYDAY
PERSON AND YOU GET A JOB WITH A
CELEBRITY, YOU GET A JOB WITH A
BIG POLITICIAN, AND ALL OF A
SUDDEN YOUR MOM'S PROUD OF IF
YOU, YOU GOT SCHOOL STUFF THAT
TALK ABOUT AT THANKSGIVING
DINNER, EVERYBODY IS ASKING
QUESTIONS AND YOU ARE A LITTLE
BIT OF AN AUTHORITY, THEN
SUDDENLY THAT PERSON GETS IN
TROUBLE.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
THE ALTERNATIVE IS I'M GONNA
JUMP BACK INTO THE OCEAN OF
ANONYMITY WHERE I DON'T HAVE ANY
SPECIAL STANDING AND MAYBE DON'T
HAVE SUPPORT AND MAYBE I GET IN
TROUBLE, THE LAW COMES AFTER ME
AND NOBODY IS GOING TO HELP ME,
MY COUSIN CAN'T HELP ME, NOBODY
CAN HELP ME.
SOMETIMES WE ARE TOUGH ON PEOPLE
WHO HANG ON TO THE RICH AND
POWERFUL.
PEOPLE READ "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE
TRYING TO GET A LITTLE BIT OF
CELEBRITY.
>> THAT'S SUCH AN INTERESTING
POINT.
DAVID, YOU KNOW, DEFENDED TRUMP
IN THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL,
BASICALLY SAID THAT HE BELIEVES
THAT NAUTA AND DE OLIVEIRA HERE,
THIS OVERBEARING TO CHARGE THEM
IN THIS WAY, SORT OF GETS TO --
>> LOOK, I THINK YOU GOT TO GO
AFTER THE LITTLE PEOPLE TO GET
THE BIG PEOPLE.
ONE OF THE CONCERNS PEOPLE HAVE
IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM,
THE LITTLE PEOPLE DO THE BIG
TIME AND THE BIG PEOPLE DO NO
TIME.
HOPEFULLY, WE WILL BE SEEING
SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN THIS
SITUATION.