We got our first
inkling that an indictment was coming
when the former president
posted on his social network
earlier today.
This began
with an attack on the special counsel,
Jack Smith, which doesn't bear repeating,
I should know.
But it's something
that you see frequently
from the former president.
Joining us now is someone who knows
the former
president backward and forward.
CNN political analyst and New York Times
senior Washington correspondent
and bestselling Trump biographer
Maggie Haberman.
Maggie, thank you for joining me tonight.
I wonder, as we have been bracing
for this indictment,
waiting for it to come down
as you've read through it.
What stood out to you
A couple of things, Caitlin.
Number one.
Much of this was known.
Much of this was in the public domain
or it was uncovered by the House
Select Committee run by Liz Cheney
and some of her colleagues.
And so
you look at this
two years of investigative work
that preceded this.
And it's all there. It's all very clear.
There were a couple of threads
that they boiled down.
Jackson's team
boiled down into a three conspiracies
that he says took
place in the Trump was at the center of
what is striking
is the very few new details they have
are from, say,
Mike Pence, who clearly talks
to investigators
about private conversations with Trump,
who had, um, told his notes subpoenaed,
which is why they show up there.
There, there
there is an effort by Jack
Smith in this indictment to say
that what Trump did goes
beyond free
speech and goes beyond free
political expression
and was using the government
to try to carry out these conspiracies.
You're going to hear Trump's team
respond that this was free speech
and he believed the election was stolen.
And you will continue hearing that
Yeah, we just heard that from John Laura
a few moments ago
trying to make that argument
about the fake elector
scheme, remarkably.
But, you know,
as we often
know, Maggie,
you and I have covered
Trump for several years.
You much longer than I have.
But he often tries to kind of project
a sense of bravado
when something like this is coming.
He announced before
the indictment had actually come down
that he believed it was coming.
But what is your sense
of what he really feels
about this indictment
and the charges and the people
that the special counsel
has spoken to in this
It's a great question, Caitlin.
And you are correct.
He loves to project bravado.
He also loves to be in control
and have every moment
that happens in his life
exist on his terms.
And so that's why he has tried
to narrate his own indictments
over the three that have happened
so far as three and a half,
if you count, last week.
But privately, behind the scenes, he's
very angry.
He is much more rattled
than he is projecting.
Being, again,
as you say, everything with him
is about appearances.
And he wants to give up the appearance
that everything is fine he is very upset.
Folks around him are very upset.
On the one hand,
they were relieved
reading this indictment
that there were not more details
that they didn't know
there were in it on the other.
There was a reference
to six coconspirators,
and that raises questions about will
anyone else face charges
and will more details be revealed
if that happens?
And I think that's really critical here,
because we are you're right
about the new details
that came to Pence's notes.
I think the Patriot baloney
asking him to stand down on the election,
rejecting certifying the votes part.
But the fact that
there are six unindicted
coconspirators here
who could very soon become indicted
coconspirators here.
I mean, the idea
those those indictments
could shed a lot of light
on what
they were also doing behind the scenes.
That's right.
And again, to be clear,
they have not named these people
and we don't know
that they will face charges.
But the way we have seen Jack Smith
do these indictments
so far
is he starts out with a certain piece
and then he expands.
We saw him
expand in the documents case
last week with a superseding indictment
and a new codefendant
for Trump who works for him.
You are seeing in this
this sprawl around Trump's world
how many people
this indictment touches on.
And I think that that always creates
a sense of anxiety for Trump,
because as we said before,
he likes to project control
and have control so much
And what about Mark Meadows?
I mean, the idea,
you know, he's not mentioned here by name
in this indictment.
Obviously, there's been
suspicion in Trumpworld
that he was cooperating
with the special counsel's team.
What is your sense of his role
in all of this?
And, you know,
of course,
whether or not Trump
believes he's actually cooperating
Well, Trump is very suspicious
about Meadows and has been for some time.
But Trump is suspicious
about a very wide range of people,
and it often doesn't
necessarily mean anything.
I don't know that
Meadows is cooperating Caitlin.
I don't think that anybody knows
except for Mark Meadows and his lawyer
and maybe one or two other people.
But it's clear that Mark Meadows,
we know that he testified.
We know that he spoke with investigators
It's clear there are some scenes in there
that he had knowledge of.
And I suspect they asked him about it
and that
they used what he said,
if it was confirming for what
the bigger picture
that they were looking at.
But there's nothing in there
so far
that suggests either
that Mark Meadows was providing
extensive information
that they didn't have access to already
or that Mark Meadows might face
charges again.
We don't know what we don't know.
We don't know what else prosecutors have.
But on the face of it,
that's what this looks like.
There's shades of meadows in there.
There's shades of more
of Mike Pence in there.
But beyond that,
it doesn't look like there's a
lot to grab on to
Maggie Haberman, thank you.