HEATHER: I think this collaboration is really important because it challenges us.
QINGLIN: Academic exchanges expose you to different ideas.
HONG: People just learn from each other.
HEATHER: We've been able to have some quite uncomfortable conversations.
HONG: Because I came from there so I know how they work.
QINGLIN: Although we sometimes have different opinions we are really good friends.
HEATHER: I think collaboration is essential to science and the greater diversity of people
we collaborate with then the greater the benefits. I think it's as simple as that.
HEATHER: I'm Heather Viles, I'm professor of biogeomorphology and heritage
conservation at the University of Oxford.
QINGLIN: My name is Qinglin Guo. I belong to Dunhuang Academy in China.
HEATHER: Dunhuang Research Academy is responsible for looking after
some of the major heritage sites in north west China,
and the team we work with are a group of scientists led by professor Qinglin Guo.
QINGLIN: Our research is mainly focused on the conservation and preservation of cultural heritage
and studies the destruction of sites by wind and rain.
HEATHER: And we're trying to investigate whether planting things around them,
or enhancing the natural vegetation, can help protect them against further deterioration.
JENNY: So these blocks have been made by the Dunhuang Academy in China.
We use this 3D microscope to look at the surface of the blocks to see what happens over time.
HONG: So this afternoon I'm going to use the machine to measure
ultrasonic pulse velocity on my earthen cubes.
HEATHER: I'm very lucky that within my group I have Hong Zhang
who is Chinese and has very good connections with Chinese colleagues.
HONG: I'm a translator, I'm a coordinator and also I'm a researcher. We started this
collaboration actually from 2015 because I've got quite a lot of friends who are working in China.
I said to my friends, I said look, obviously you have those amazing heritage sites
but my boss, Professor Heather Viles, I think she started this kind of concept. For example like,
learn from nature, learn from the past. So I thought why can't we just work together.
QINGLIN: Our collaboration has lasted for almost 10 years you know. We started from
several international meetings. We then began to exchange our researcher[s].
HEATHER: So we talk reasonably often but at the moment we talk
mainly through Hong. So sometimes Hong, Jenny and I will be in a meeting and we'll be discussing,
you know, something to do with the experiment and I will say, you know off the top of my head,
oh Hong could you ask our Dunhuang colleagues about this? She will almost instantaneously get
onto her phone get onto WeChat and, within often half an hour, we have an answer to the question.
JENNY: We're looking at the very surface of the earthen cube
and we can see the bits that have been subjected to the harshest conditions have become
far more rough, whereas at the start it was very very smooth.
INTERVIEWER: Is the culture of doing science different between the UK and China?
HEATHER: I believe there are quite significant differences yes.
Some of those I think are generational, so I think if, if you were a scientist in the,
starting off in the 70s and 80s in China, then their systems were quite
isolated from the West and I think they had very specific viewpoints.
QINGLIN: I think there are some differences really especially the way
of thinking [about] scientific problems. I feel science in the UK is more like philosophy.
Chinese scientists are more focused on solving practical problems.
HEATHER: And that's quite unusual.
In Britain the science is often quite a long way away from the the practicalities.
QINGLIN: Another huge difference between [the] two teams is is the way of expression. You know
Western people always dare to express
their opinions, while our culture tells us we should think more before we talk.
HEATHER: The really obvious cultural difference that sticks in my mind is just
the difference between work and home. I think they found it rather strange,
when they came as individuals to spend time here for a year and they think,
I think they felt that I was rather cold because I would come to meetings with people
but I wouldn't invite them round to my house. And you know I like to have some down time.
JENNY: So after dinner was like, right, so you've got your meeting
to work out what's happening tomorrow, and I was like Hong... it's half ten!
HONG: Yeah that that's why, you see, why I said that to Jenny, probably I feel a
little bit sorry because I know - for jenny who's growing up here - uh, probably wouldn't
like, do that kind of things, after, outside working hours. But that is very normal in China.
INTERVIEWER: Are there any more examples of things that you have to tell
Jenny or Heather or, you know, English researchers?
HONG: Um...
JENNY: When they told me to sit in the van
because it was too much work and telling me not to get offended by it.
HONG: Yeah, yeah yeah. And I mean in China for carrying out those field work... mostly
just... men. She already noticed. When Jenny was there those Chinese guys they thought oh,
she's a student firstly, secondly she's a girl - and you know under this very hot weather it's
too, too tough for for a lady. They just try to, for example, like treat her like a sister. Try
to protect her. But without realizing probably that could be a problem in a Western country.
JENNY: This is an environmental cabinet and it's used to simulate environmental
conditions. So we're simulating what happens in winter so when
it's really cold during the night and then warms up during the day.
HONG: Chinese people are very... hospitality. Each time, we don't need to
pay, like, food, accommodation. I think after so many years, Heather already changed something.
So when they, when Chinese friends, I mean Chinese colleagues, come here, each time
Heather tries to organise a nice meal for them. Just to show her, you know, appreciation.
So I think somehow by the collaboration, I mean people just uh, learn from each other.
HONG: So my english is not very good, so you have to...
JENNY: Hong did you just say your english is not very good?
HONG: Yeah, not not good enough! (laughs)
JENNY: Hong!
QINGLIN: Many challenges and difficulties occur in such
transnational teamwork, such as differences in language, time lag, culture. However they
[are] differences we can overcome compared with the benefits from our collaboration.
HEATHER: One of the areas that we found to be quite challenging is deciding whose name
gets onto the paper that comes out as a result of the experiments we're doing, and what order
the names are in. And what we've discovered is that Chinese practice is quite different
to British practice. And I think it's a measure of the success of our collaboration that
we've been able to have some quite uncomfortable conversations, and come up with something that
works at the international agreed level of, kind of, research ethics.
QINGLIN: Although we sometimes have different opinions we can research consensus quickly because
we have the same goal, which is to protect the cultural heritages which belong to all of mankind.
INTERVIEWER: The big sort of, political goings-on,
how do you deal with the fact that they're there? And you do talk about them at all?
HEATHER: Um, that's a really good question. I mean politics is always just very narrowly under the
surface. My experience is that it's really hard to talk to Chinese colleagues in any meaningful way
about these things. Even when they're in Britain they're quite reticent about being, being open and
it's quite interesting for them to be sat in our lab group when we're having some political
argument and you can tell they feel quite uncomfortable. And I think when we go to China we
also feel uncomfortable because, you know, we see all the cameras taking pictures of every vehicle
as you go along motorways. And I think each one of us as individuals has to navigate that.
HONG: We are comparing P... sorry I said 'P wave' again.
Because we are comparing P...
(laughs) ...sorry!
HEATHER: I think there's a real challenge in trying to actually get to know and understand each
other, and the way that we've really, I think, got round that challenge is through spending
as much time together as we, as we can. And also luckily perhaps sharing a good sense of humour.
And that would be my tip for any collaboration actually,
is that if you can laugh together you can probably start to really understand each other.
QINGLIN: One of the basic prerequisites is trust. When you have doubts you can ask questions
but do not rush to deny the other team before you fully understand.
HEATHER: If I was going to advise colleagues who are wanting to start
out on these collaborations I would say be humble.
I think one of the dangers that I've learned - and this is through collaborating with people anywhere
in the world - is do not spout what you think is something really sensible in the first five
minutes. Always listening to people, trying to be humble, and say 'I don't really know,
what - what do you think?' is a much better way of, of, of getting a shared understanding of things.
HEATHER:
Perhaps the best benefit that I've had from this collaboration is when I go to China and I have
to give a lecture, and it has to be translated slide by slide into Chinese, and it takes forever,
and it's really stressful, and at the end I get so many really interesting questions
and I've just been exposed to a lot of different ideas and viewpoints.
QINGLIN: You know Heather is very clever and so kind.
It's very relaxed [to] stay with her and her teams. She's always able to put
herself in your shoes. She's my really friend during our collaboration.
HEATHER: I've absolutely loved collaborating with them. I mean they've,
they've shown me sights that I would never have seen otherwise. They've just given me
experience to work with different people in in different ways. I've really enjoyed it.
HONG: For me I think, firstly, even I'm working here, I can also contribute to those historical
sites in China. So this is a kind of, you know the feeling...
You feel very happy about it.