>>> MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE UNUSUALLY BUSY RIGHT NOW FOR THE
BEGINNING OF A RECESS.
THE HOUSE INTEL ISSUING
SUBPOENAS, WORKING ON HEARINGS
ABOUT TRUMP’S UKRAINE SCANDAL
WHILE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER
MITCH McCONNELL EMERGED TODAY,
INTERESTING, TO ADDRESS THE VERY
REAL PROSPECT THE HOUSE COULD
ULTIMATELY IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT
AND TO TAMP DOWN ANY SPECULATION
THAT McCONNELL MIGHT TRY TO HAVE
THE SENATE REFUSE TO HOLD ANY
TRIAL AFTER A POTENTIAL TRUMP
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. >> WHAT DOES HAPPEN IN THE
SENATE IF THE HOUSE DOES GET
THROUGH WITH THIS INQUIRY AND
DECIDE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO
IMPEACH PRESIDENT TRUMP?
>> WELL, UNDER THE SENATE RULES,
WE’RE REQUIRED TO TAKE IT UP IF
THE HOUSE DOES GO DOWN THAT
PATH, AND WE’LL FOLLOW THE
SENATE RULES.
SENATE RULES. >> FOLLOW THE RULES.
THAT WOULD BE BAD NEWS FOR ANY
TRUMP ALLIES WHO MIGHT HAVE
HOPED McCONNELL WOULD TRY TO
FIND A WAY TO PROTECT TRUMP FROM
THE SENATE TRIAL IF IT OCCURRED.
NOW, THERE IS A VERY RARE AND
MOMENTOUS THING WE’RE TALKING
ABOUT HERE.
ABOUT HERE. IT’S A SCENE THAT CAPTIVATES THE
NATION WHEN YOU HAVE AN INTENSE
DEBATE ON THE PROPRIETY AND
CRIMINALITY OF A SITTING
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. >> THE SERGEANT OF ARMS WILL
MAKE THE PROCLAMATION.
>> HEAR YE, HEAR YE, HEAR YE,
ALL PERSONS ARE COMMANDED TO
KEEP SILENT ON PAIN OF
IMPRISONMENT WHILE THE SENATE OF
THE UNITED STATES IS SITTING FOR
THE TRIAL OF THE ARTICLES OF
IMPEACHMENT EXHIBITED BY THE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AGAINST
WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON,
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
>> THAT’S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.
McCONNELL MAKING NEWS BY SAYING
THAT KIND OF TRIAL IS
UNAVOIDABLE IF THE HOUSE
IMPEACHES PRESIDENT TRUMP.
NOW HERE’S YOUR FACT CHECK.
HE IS MOSTLY CORRECT.
THE CONSTITUTION DOESN’T PROVIDE
A TECHNICAL SCHEDULE FOR THIS
TRIAL, BUT IT DOES STATE THE
SENATE IS REQUIRED TO HOLD A
TRIAL.
TRIAL. QUOTE, THE SENATE SHALL HAVE THE
SOLE POWER TO TRY ALL
IMPEACHMENTS.
IMPEACHMENTS. THAT’S KEY BECAUSE "SHALL" IS
SIMPLY A LEGAL COMMAND REQUIRING
ACTION, MEANING THE SENATE MUST
HOLD TRIALS AFTER IMPEACHMENTS.
AND THAT’S WHAT’S HAPPENED IN
THE TWO TIMES IN THE WHOLE
HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY WHEN THE
HOUSE HAS EVER GONE DOWN THAT
ROAD AND SOLEMNLY IMPEACHED THE
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. IN THE CASES OF CLINTON AND
JOHNSON, THE SENATE DID HOLD
TRIALS FOR THEM, AND BOTH CASES
INVOLVED THEM BEING ACQUITTED.
AS FOR McCONNELL’S REFERENCE FOR
THE RULES, THE SENATE MAINTAIN
ASSET OF RULES FOR THESE TYPE OF
IMPEACHMENT RULES.
IMPEACHMENT RULES. THEY WERE UPDATED LAST IN 1986.
AND THEY DO PROVIDE A SCHEDULE
FOR MANDATORY IMPEACHMENT,
NOTING EVEN IN THE EVENT, THE
SENATE FAILS TO SIT AS SCHEDULED
FOR CONSIDERATION OF ARTICLES OF
IMPEACHMENT, IT CAN GO AHEAD AND
ADOPT AN ORDER FIXING THE TIME
FOR RESUMING SUCH CONSIDERATION.
SO IT’S NOT JUST MITCH McCONNELL
SAYING IT.
SAYING IT. WE’RE SHOWING YOU THE RULES HERE
THAT SUPPORT HIM BEING RIGHT.
AND WE ALSO REACHED OUT TODAY TO
SENATE LEADERSHIP HERE AT "THE
BEAT," AND SENATE REPUBLICAN
AIDE SAID YES, A TRIAL MUST BE
HELD UNDER THE RULES NOTING
IMPEACHMENT REQUIRES WHEN IT
HAPPENS THAT THOSE ARTICLES HIT
THE SENATE FLOOR WHERE THEY CAN
BE VOTED ON OR DISMISSED.
NOW WHAT DO ALL THESE RULES CALL
FOR, AND WHAT IS IT LIKE WHEN
YOU HAVE A CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE
SUPREME COURT PRESIDING OVER THE
TRIAL OF THE PRESIDENT?
WELL, WITH ME NOW FOR OUR
OPENING ARGUMENT SERIES, FORMER
ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL NEAL
KATYAL, WHO HAS ARGUED DOZENS OF
CASES BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT.
GOOD DAY, SIR.
>> GOOD DAY.
>> LET’S START WITH WHAT
McCONNELL SAID AND WHAT WE THINK
THE RULES HAVE GENERALLY
PROVIDED FOR.
PROVIDED FOR. IS HE RIGHT?
>> SO I THINK MANY PEOPLE
EXPECTED THIS GUY, McCONNELL, TO
SAY SOMETHING ELSE, BECAUSE,
REMEMBER, THIS IS THE SAME GUY,
WHO ALREADY HELD UP MERRICK
GARLAND’S CONFIRMATION AS A
JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT, AN
UNPRECEDENTED THING THAT HAD
NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE IN OUR
HISTORY FOR NOT EVEN GIVING THIS
GUY A HEARING, MERRICK GARLAND A
HEARING.
HEARING. I THINK WHAT HE DID TODAY WAS
REMARKABLE.
REMARKABLE. IT WAS ACTUALLY UP AND UP AND
RIGHT.
RIGHT. HE IS SAYING THE SENATE RULES
REQUIRE IT.
REQUIRE IT. I THINK THERE COULD BE A DEBATE
ABOUT WHETHER THAT
CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT AND THE WORD
"SHALL" REQUIRES A TRIAL.
BUT I’M GLAD TO SEE McCONNELL
HAS DECIDED ON THE IDEA THAT
YOU’VE GOT TO HAVE A TRIAL,
BECAUSE I THINK EVERY SINGLE
MINUTE, FRANKLY, OR HALF HOUR
WE’RE SEEING SOMETHING NEW ABOUT
DONALD TRUMP.
DONALD TRUMP. AND, YOU KNOW, THAT’S GOING TO
BE THE STUFF IN THE TRIAL, AND
IT’S GOING TO BE PRETTY DARN
DEVASTATING FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.
>> WELL, AND YOU MENTIONED, THIS
IS ALL THE NEWS HE’S DRIVING.
CONGRESS ON RECESS, BUT
McCONNELL GETTING OUT THERE.
HE’S GOT HIS REASONS.
TAKE A LITTLE MORE OF A LOOK AT
WHAT HE SAID.
>> IT’S A SENATE RULE RELATED TO
IMPEACHMENT THAT WOULD TAKE 67
VOTES TO CHANGE.
SO I WOULD HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO
TAKE IT UP.
HOW LONG YOU’RE ON IT IS A WHOLE
DIFFERENT MATTER, BUT I WOULD
HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO TAKE IT
UP.
UP. >> WE KNOW THE PRESIDENT DOES
HIS PROCEDURAL AND LEGAL
LEARNING MORE THROUGH THE
TELEVISION THAN ANY OTHER MEANS.
SO DONALD TRUMP MAY BE LEARNING
ALONG WITH OTHERS TODAY THAT
THAT’S McCONNELL’S POSITION.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR WHAT IT
LOOKS LIKE IF THE HOUSE DOES
IMPEACH, AT THIS POINT THERE IS
A MAJORITY OF VOTES FOR THIS
IMPEACHMENT PROBE.
IMPEACHMENT PROBE. IF THEY IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT,
WALK US THROUGH WHAT WE KNOW
THAT LOOK LIKES WHEN IT HITS THE
SENATE FLOOR, AND HOW DO YOU
THINK THAT MIGHT CHANGE
SOMETHING THAT SO FAR HAS HAD
AMERICANS LARGELY, ALTHOUGH
THERE HAS BEEN SOME SHIFTS, BUT
LARGELY DIVIDED?
LARGELY DIVIDED? >> SO FIRST LET ME TALK ABOUT
WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE IN TERMS OF
McCONNELL, BECAUSE THING IS VERY
BAD NEWS FOR TRUMP.
McCONNELL COULD HAVE PLAYED THE
SAME GAMES HE PLAYED ABOUT
MERRICK GARLAND.
MERRICK GARLAND. I DON’T HAVE TO HAVE A TRIAL AND
SO ON.
SO ON. THERE IS SOME AMBIGUITY HE’LL
FIND IN THE SENATE RULE, YOU
KNOW.
KNOW. IT CAN BE TANGENTIOUS ABOUT THE
LAW.
LAW. THE FACT HE DIDN’T DO THAT LIKE
LAST WEEK’S VOTE ABOUT SAYING
THE WHISTLE-BLOWER REPORT HAS TO
BE TURNED OVER, PEOPLE DIDN’T
EXPECT McCONNELL TO SUPPORT THAT
SENATE RESOLUTION, BUT HE DID.
BOTH OF THOSE TOGETHER TO ME
SUGGEST HE IS REALLY DISTANCING
HIMSELF FROM TRUMP, AND THAT’S A
PRETTY REMARKABLE THING, BECAUSE
DURING THE WHOLE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION, WE NEVER SAW
THAT.
THAT. NOW WITH RESPECT TO WHAT THE
TRIAL WOULD LOOK LIKE, FIRST
YOU’D HAVE THE HOUSE, IT WOULD
HAVE TO VOTE UP ARTICLES OF
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. AND THOSE LOOK VERY MUCH LIKE A
CRIMINAL INDICTMENT.
CRIMINAL INDICTMENT. LIKE ARTICLE I, THE PRESIDENT
OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE BECAUSE OF X
OR Y, OR HERE ARTICLE I WOULD BE
ABUSE OF POWER.
THE PRESIDENT PUT HIS INTERESTS
ABOVE THE FOREIGN POLICY OF THE
UNITED STATES.
UNITED STATES. IT WOULD THEN GO TO THE SENATE
FOR A TRIAL.
AND THAT TRIAL LOOKS VERY MUCH
IN MANY WAYS LIKE YOUR STANDARD
TRIAL THAT YOU -- THAT YOU SEE
IN THE COURTROOMS ALL THE TIME.
THERE IS ONE BIG DIFFERENCE, OF
COURSE.
COURSE. THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THE CHIEF
JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES IS
GOING TO PRESIDE OVER IT.
AND THERE WILL BE EVIDENCE TAKEN
AND WITNESSES AND TRUMP MIGHT
TESTIFY OR NOT.
BUT IN THOSE RESPECTS, IT WILL
LOOK AND MIRROR VERY MUCH WHAT
WE’RE USED TO IN SEEING TRIALS.
>> FASCINATING.
>> FASCINATING. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT JOHN ROBS
MAKING THAT TRIP ACROSS THE
STREET.
STREET. THE LAST THING I WANT TO ASK YOU
ABOUT IS SOMETHING THAT, YOU
KNOW, WE DIDN’T MAKE IT THIS WAY
HERE IN THE NEWSROOM.
YOU DIDN’T MAKE IT THIS WAY OVER
AT YOUR LAW OFFICE.
BUT LAWYERS ARE AGAIN FRONT AND
CENTER IN WAYS GOOD, BAD, AND IN
BETWEEN.
BETWEEN. TONIGHT RUDY GIULIANI, THE
PRESIDENT’S LAWYER, SOMETIMES
LAWYER, SOMETIMES FIXER,
SOMETIMES DOING THINGS THAT ARE
OBVIOUSLY NOT LEGAL WORK HIT
WITH SUBPOENAS.
WITH SUBPOENAS. OTHER FOX NEWS ANALYSTS WHO
PRIMARILY SAY THAT THEY ARE
LAWYERS AND WERE DOING POTENTIAL
LEGAL WORK, THEY CLAIM FOR THE
PRESIDENT, EXPOSED BY FOX NEWS
IS ALSO BEING A PART OF THIS
EFFORT TO GO AFTER BIDEN.
WALK US THROUGH WHAT IT MEANS
THAT WE HAVE SO MANY LAWYERS IN
THE MIX AND WHETHER THEY CAN
AVAIL THEMSELVES OF LEGAL
PROTECTIONS AS THEY ARE DEMANDED
TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE ON WHAT
YOU’VE JUST OUTLINED COULD BE AN
IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.
IMPEACHMENT TRIAL. >> YEAH, THIS IS SOME OF THE
SCARIEST NEWS FOR TRUMP, ARI.
THERE ARE TWO SETS OF LAWYERS.
ONE IS RUDY GIULIANI, AND
GIULIANI HAS SAID I WASN’T
ACTING AS A LAWYER DURING A LOT
OF THIS STUFF.
AND HE’S OBVIOUSLY GOT EMAILS
AND DOCUMENTS, TEXT MESSAGES AND
THE LIKE, AND IT’S GOING TO BE
VERY HARD FOR HIM TO ASSERT
ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE WHEN
HE HIMSELF SAID I WASN’T ACTING
AS A LAWYER.
SO I DO THINK THE HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES IS ULTIMATELY
GOING TO GET AUTOMATIC THAT
STUFF.
STUFF. THERE ISN’T GOING TO BE AN
EFFECTIVE PRIVILEGE THAT
GIULIANI IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO
ASSERT OVER THE BULK OF IT.
THEN THERE ARE TWO OTHER PEOPLE,
THE GENEVA AND TOENSING.
AND BOTH OF THEM, THIS IS
ACCORDING TO FOX NEWS YESTERDAY,
BOTH OF THEM ACTUALLY DECLINED
TO BE TRUMP’S LAWYER, AND
INSTEAD SERVED AS SOME SORT OF
SECRET BACK OFFICE CONDUIT FOR
INFORMATION OR SOMETHING LIKE
THAT.
THAT. BUT THEY SAID WE COULDN’T BE HIS
LAWYER, ACCORDING TO THE FOX
STORY, BECAUSE WE HAD A CONFLICT
OF INTEREST WITH OTHER STUFF
INVOLVING TRUMP.
INVOLVING TRUMP. GIVEN THAT THEY’RE EITHER, A,
ACTING AS A LAWYER AND DOING
SOMETHING THAT WOULD GET THEM IN
A LOT OF TROUBLE WITH THE
DISCIPLINARY AND ETHICS AND BAR
ASSOCIATIONS, OR B, FAR MORE
LIKELY THEY WEREN’T ACTING AS
LAWYERS.
LAWYERS. >> I’M RUNNING OVER ON TIME.
I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE HIT THAT
POINT.
POINT. IF THEIR PRIOR POSITION IS WE
CAN’T BE HIS LAWYER FOR THESE
REASONS, NOW THEY’RE GOING AND
DOING THIS STUFF, WHICH THE
CONGRESS SAYS MIGHT BE EVIDENCE
OF IMPEACHMENT, AND THEY HAPPEN
TO BE LAWYERS, BUT THIS IS LIKE
THEY GOT, YOU KNOW, AN UBER
CONTRACTOR A TASK RABBIT AND
THEY’RE HELPING YOU HANG A
PICTURE, THEY DON’T GET TO HIDE
BEHIND THE FACT THEY ALSO
OTHERWISE ARE LAWYERS.
>> EXACTLY.
>> EXACTLY. THEY’RE TASK RABBIT NONLAWYERS A
THIS POINT.
THIS POINT. AND ANY ASSERTION OF PRIVILEGE,
THEY’RE GOING LOSE.
ONE WOULD EXPECT AGAIN THEY’RE
GOING TO HAVE EMAILS, DOCUMENTS,
AND ALL SORTS OF STUFF THAT IS
GOING TO BE SUPER INTERESTING TO
THE HOUSE JUDICIARY AND
INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITYITTEES.
INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITYITTEES. >> FASCINATING.
>> FASCINATING. NEAL KATYAL, THANK YOU FOR
MAKING TIME FOR US.
>> AND ONE LAST THING.
>> YES, SIR?
>> ONE LAST THING, ARI.
IF THEY DESTROYED THE DOCUMENTS
NOW OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT
WOULD OPEN THEM UP TO
OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE AND OTHER
THINGS.
THINGS. THIS IS GOING TO BECOME A VERY
SENSITIVE PART OF THE
INVESTIGATION.
INVESTIGATION. >> ALL VERY WELL PUT, LOOKING
AROUND THE CORNERS.