>> I'VE HAD FOR A WHILE, OVER THE WEEKEND I HAD ENOUGH.
>> HE BOUNCES OFF AND HITS SOMETHING ELSE.
AND THAT'S NOT THE MOST REASSURING IMAGE YOU WANT IN A
NUCLEAR AGE AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS.
>> THAT IS TWO PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIANS DESCRIBED PRESIDENT
TRUMP'S RECENT BEHAVIOR ON "MORNING JOE TODAY."
"HOW TRUMP COULD GET FIRED" IMPEACHMENT AND THE LESSER KNOWN
PROCESS DESCRIBED IN THE 25th AMENDMENT.
REPUBLICAN WHO WORKED IN THE OFFICE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT IN
THE FIRST BUSH WHITE HOUSE SAID THIS IN THE NEW YORKER ABOUT THE
CHANCE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP BEING REMOVED FROM OFFICE.
IT'S SOMEWHERE IN THE BIG MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN A 1% CHANCE AND
50. IT'S SOME PERCENT.
IT'S NOT NOTHING. JOIN US NOW, EVAN, STAFF WRITER
AT THE "NEW YORKER." HE WROTE THE STORY "HOW TRUMP
COULD GET FIRED." WE COVERED THE 25th AMENDMENT ON
THIS SHOW STARTING A WHILE AGO. WHAT GOT YOU INTERESTED IN IT TO
DO THIS EXHAUSTIVE STUDY OF BOTH METHODS OF 25th AMENDMENT AND
IMPEACHMENT. >> SURE, YOU KNOW, LAWRENCE IN
MANY WAYS AS YOU'VE EXPLORED ON THIS SHOW.
THIS IS A CONVERSATION THAT PEOPLE ARE HAVING AROUND DINNER
TABLE. IT'S ONE PEOPLE HAVE AT THE
OFFICE. MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE TALKING
ABOUT IN PRIVATE. IS THIS A PRESIDENT WHO IS ABLE
TO DO THE JOB AND IS ABLE TO GO THE DISTANCE.
LET'S STATE AT THE OUTSET HERE. BY ANY NORMAL ACCOUNTING, MOST
PRESIDENTS, ONLY ONES RESIGN, TWO HAVE BEEN IMPEACHED BUT
WEREN'T ULTIMATELY REMOVED EIGHT HAVE DIED IN OFFICE.
THIS IS A PRESIDENT THAT IS BESET BY DOUBTS OF COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT ORDER OF ANY PRESIDENT THAT WE'VE SEEN AS LONG AS WE'VE
BEEN LOOKING AT THIS QUESTION. THE TRUTH IS THERE ARE PEOPLE
HAVING AN ACTIVE CONVERSATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HE'LL LAST.
WE SAID LET'S ACTUALLY TEST THAT ON THE BASES OF LAW AND HISTORY
AND REALLY ASSESS WHETHER OR NOT THE CHANCES ARE MEANINGFUL.
WHAT WE FOUND WAS SURPRISING. >> THE 25th AMENDMENT WOULD BE
WHAT WOULD BE INVOKED IF PEOPLE LOOKING FROM A MENTAL HEALTH
PERSPECTIVE, GET NERVOUS ABOUT IT.
I WANT TO PLAY SOMETHING THAT JOE SAID THIS MORNING.
I THINK IT'S TYPICAL OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT KIND OF THE
DINNER TABLE CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE GOING ON OUT THERE.
>> AND HE STARTED, THAT NOBODY HAS ASKED THIS QUESTION BEFORE,
BUT WHY DID WE EVEN HAVE A CIVIL WAR.
I -- MY MOTHER HAS HAD TO MENTION FOR TEN YEARS THAT
SOUNDS LIKE THE SORT OF THING MY MOTHER WOULD SAY TODAY.
>> AND YOU DETAIL THE PROCESS OF HOW THE 25th AMENDMENT WORKS FOR
THIS. BUT THERE IS NO DEFINITION IN
THE 25th AMENDMENT THAT REQUIRES SOME MEDICAL CERTIFICATION OR
SOME SPECIFIC THRESHOLD TO BE MET.
IT REALLY IS THE JUDGMENT OF THE VICE PRESIDENT AND THE MAJORITY
OF THE CABINET AND THEN POSSIBLY CONGRESSIONAL INVOLVEMENT IN
THAT DECISION AND IT'S REALLY LEFT OPEN TO THEM TO DECIDE, IS
THIS PERSON FIT TO CARRY OUT THIS JOB.
>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. AND IT WAS ALWAYS DESIGNED TO BE
UNDERSTOOD WITHIN THE POLITICAL CONTEXT AT THE TIME.
MEANING, IS THAT PRESIDENT FACING THE SET OF CHALLENGES
THAT HIS -- THAT HE'S CAPABLE OF RESPONDING TO.
LAWRENCE MOORE, WHO WAS THE WHITE HOUSE PHYSICIAN FOR RONALD
REAGAN AND FOR GEORGE H.W. BUSH. AFTER HE GOT OUT OF THE WHITE
HOUSE HE ACTUALLY PUT DOWN ON PAPER WHAT HE THOUGHT WERE THE
RELEVANT STANDARDS. HE SAID IS THE PRESIDENT ACTING
APPROPRIATELY. IS HE COMMUNICATING CLEARLY?
IS HE EXPRESSING GOOD JUDGMENT? THOSE WERE THE KIND OF
MEASUREMENTS HE WOULD USE TO DECIDE WHETHER A PRESIDENT WAS
FIT FOR OFFICE OR NOT FIT FOR OFFICE.
THESE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS ULTIMATELY THE PEOPLE AROUND
PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL HAVE TO DECIDE IF THEY SEE SOME
DETERIORATION OVER TIME. >> THAT WAS A STRIKING ELEMENT
OF THE PIECE. WE'LL HAVE TO SQUEEZE IN A
COMMERCIAL BREAK HERE, WHEN WE COME BACK I WANT TO TALK ABOUT
THE IMPEACHMENT SECTION OF THE YOUR
>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE. INVESTIGATIONS BEGET
INVESTIGATIONS. THEY BEGIN A PROCESS OF
PRODUCING DOCUMENTS, AND THEY ALSO GENERATE ANTI-BODIES WITHIN
THE WHITE HOUSE. PEOPLE MAKE CHOICES ABOUT WHAT
KIND OF RECORDS THEY WANT TO GIVE UP, WHAT KIND OF RECORDS
THEY WANT TO KEEP. MAKE CHOICES WHETHER TO
COOPERATE WITH THE COURTS, WHETHER TO COOPERATE WITH
CONGRESS. THAT CREATES THE SECOND GREATEST
RISK TO A PRESIDENT, WHICH IS BEING PERCEIVED AS NOT
COOPERATING WITH A COEQUAL BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT.
THAT WAS WHAT ULTIMATELY NIXON'S UNDOING.
IF DONALD TRUMP OR ANY OF HIS STAFF DECIDE THEY ARE GOING TO
STONEWALL OR SLOW WALK SOME OF THE KIND OF THINGS YOU ARE
HEARING ABOUT THAT'S HOW YOU END UP IN A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS.
>> IN YOUR STUDY OF PRESIDENT INSIDE TROUBLE FROM NIXON
THROUGH REAGAN, TO CLINTON, YOU MAKE THIS POINT IN THE ARTICLE,
WHICH I FIND QUITE STRIKING. YOU SAY IN EACH CASE, THE
PRESIDENT COULD NOT ADMIT TO HIMSELF THAT HE HAD DONE
ANYTHING WRONG. THAT THAT IS THE COMMON
DENOMINATOR THAT YOU FIND IN EACH ONE OF THESE CASES THAT
ENDS UP GETTING OUT OF CONTROL. >> YEAH.
IN SOME WAYS, THE HUBRIS -- LET'S CALL IT WHAT IT REALLY IS.
THE ABILITY TO CREATE A WORLD IN WHICH YOU ARE NOT -- IN WHICH
YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CRISIS THAT SURROUNDS YOU.
THAT IS -- THAT IS THE CLIMATE IN WHICH A PERSON REALLY
ULTIMATELY DOESN'T GET THE KIND OF CUES THAT THEY NEED THAT
ALLOW THEM TO BE ABLE TO STAY IN OFFICE.
SO IF YOU LOOK AT NIXON. IF YOU LOOK AT CLINTON.
IF YOU LOOK AT RON REAGAN, ALL THEM IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER WERE
ABLE TO GET THROUGH IT OF BUT IT WAS THEIR OWN MISTAKES THAT
DROVE THEM THERE. >> A REMARKA