from a practical perspective as well as
from legal and moral grounds I always
recommend do not shoot at fleeing
felons hi everyone this is John with an
extra active self- protection lesson for
you that normally we would put over on
the active self- protection extra
Channel but this particular one is a
discussion with me and Terry Johnson
from Firearms legal protection about why
shooting at fleeing felons is a bad idea
on lots of levels it's important enough
that I thought I would repost it here at
active self- protection and invite you
over there CU we post stuff like this
all the time let's hear from Terry why I
think again that shooting at fleeing
felons bad idea hey everyone it's John
and I am here with Terry Johnson from
Firearms legal protection and we got a
couple things I want to talk to you
about today uh in particular there is a
video of uh an officer involved incident
riding off duty from Brazil Who uh go
watch the video right we're going to put
it up over here so make sure you go
watch it um but but there's an
interesting discussion here about
fleeing felons because H after he you
know the officer smoke checks the first
guy who is shooting at him with a gun
the second guy is gone right no honor
among Thieves and then about 5 six
seconds later officer shoots down the
road at him at some distance so I want
to talk to Terry and ask him about legal
liability from the perspective of an
attorney when this stuff happens today's
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Watchers first of all Terry thank you so
much for being on the program man I
really appreciate a pleasure and you
know so so you've seen this video this
guy goes you know and and we see this
kind of regularly you know you get this
kind of Predator prey drive that like
you know somebody offends you no man you
just threatened my life and then I'm
going to go get you shots are heading
down the hallway so um this is a public
environment this guy is down the road
now we don't get to see what's off
camera here so for all we know in this
instance that guy could have turned
around and threatened him again correct
but for the sake of our discussion today
let's just say he doesn't let's just say
he is is heading off into the wild blue
yonder because he wants to get away cuz
you got a gun um and you've won the
fight but you decide in that moment that
you're going to take shots at that guy
um as as an attorney do you recommend
that to self- Defenders absolutely not
uh one of the things you got to keep in
mind is you're responsible for every
round that comes out of that firearm um
if it goes down the street and it
Ricochet and it hits someone you you
know you don't get points for being a
bad shot right and that's what people
miss and that's even as an off duty cop
right cuz when you're on duty you are
you're operating under the opes of of
the agency and of your city but off duty
you don't necessarily have that correct
but you can also get sued on duty as
well you know there's negligence gross
negligence the whole nine yards and the
thing you have to keep in mind is if
you're just shooting into the dark you
know I mean we see it on TV all the time
sure um you know when you see a guy
running the police officer just pulls
out his or her gun and they just shoot
at that point and it's like well where's
the threat you can't track them down I
mean did they turn around where's the
threat of imminent great B harmer death
at that point cuz you no matter what
happens you still have that as your
basis if you don't have the imminency
right there right it's a problem it's a
problem or it can be a problem both from
a criminal perspective and from a civil
perspective correct so okay here here's
my thought to you if you're going to
shoot at somebody who's fleeing like
that they just accosted you they just
threatened your life I understand that
you know again the guy went after the
first guy I got no problems with that
shot at all none at all I mean that guy
was shooting a gun at him hey great let
that guy you know uh burn him to the
ground but the the next guy is off and
gone now Assuming he's still off and
gone you said something interesting now
again whether off-duty cop or private
citizen you're responsible for that
round that leaves the the chamber and
therefore if something were to go
wrong you could be held liable both
criminally and civil for that bullet
absolutely you know here's the thing
right now you know your your cameraman
John is behind the uh camera here hi
John um um if if someone's ACC costing
John right now I pull out my gun and I
shoot that person but at the same time I
hit John in the shoulder John can sue me
no he wouldn't because he's a fine human
being and saving your life would be
incredibly important right now he's not
he sit there behind the camera he's like
I would I
would but but that may not be the case
you may not get such a kind soul exactly
and and think about it you know you've
saved someone's life but in the in the
interim you've hurt me I've got medical
bills I might lost I lost work I may
never be able to use this arm again um
and it's your actions that cost that yes
and and that's the thing people don't
understand while you're doing something
good there can also be negative
consequences to that well and and okay
so and as a Firearms trainer I would say
this the vast majority of people the the
99.5% of firearms carriers that I train
I I we added it up I I think this year
we trained just over 300 people on the
line shots past 15 yards are almost
impossible for the average self-
Defender especially somebody who's
carrying a subc compact gun you're
carrying a small gun with a short sight
radius um that's not easy to shoot at
distance and you get that 25 35 50 yard
shot almost impossible now I know
there's going to be somebody out there
who is like yeah but I carry my rolling
special with a red dot and a one minute
of angle you know dot and I can make
that shot okay if you've actually tested
it under pressure and you can then that
that particular problem is ameliorated
but if you miss
now that could even be not necessarily
bodily injury but I mean if I put a
bullet through someone's car now I got
to pay to have their car fit you know
what I teach in uh some of my classes is
think of it this way if um I shoot
someone let's say I shoot three times I
hit them twice I missed the third I'm
not going to miss but let's just say I
do okay that round sails and let's say
it hits a truck on the freeway that
truck turns over it blows up guess what
I'm responsible for that and the fire
department comes out once they get there
some you know let's say the fireman
breaks a lake I'm responsible for that
on the way the you know it's it's the
old thing of you're responsible to the
Natural end of that round of that
incident yeah and and and that may be no
big deal right it may just Lodge in a
tree somewhere or in a wall somewhere
and okay whatever you know you're
responsible to spackle a wall but maybe
not and so uh and so I also want to talk
about uh the legality of fleeing felons
now I I have had some discussion with
people on this and um okay we're not
talking about on duty law enforcement
okay so on duty law enforcement lethal
Force fleeing felons go read Tennessee
versus Garner uh go read Graham versus
Conor okay fine and then you can see all
about those from a on duty law
enforcement perspective but for a
private citizen um tell me about the
legality of chasing or apprehending a
fre a fleen
Fel great question you know it depends
upon the jurisdiction that you're in but
most jurisdictions I believe in my
reading 49 out of 50 states allow you to
kind of make a citizen's arrest kind of
a thing and most of them have to do with
like a a felon not a misdemeanor um
felonies and in some of them violent
felonies yes yes and and that's the
thing you got to first of all you got to
look and you got to say well wait a
minute what is this is this a felony is
this a misdemeanor do you have firsthand
knowledge and what do I mean by that not
you running out of the store as a
shopkeeper saying this guy exactly I
have to see it first and then I have to
make a determination and the first thing
you got to say after that is is it safe
is it safe for me to get involved
because again running after someone you
don't know what they've done unless
you've seen it and secondly if they've
done something violent like let's say um
shot someone stabed someone do you
really want to go after that person so
he just shot someone you're going to
insert yourself there in order to to try
to get shot too I get it some people
that you know and and I've said this
before I feel like everybody gets to set
their own uh standards of who they're
willing to to intervene for but it's
awful dangerous it is it is and one of
the one of the things you really got to
keep in mind is you want to make
yourself a good witness at that point
because if if I'm inserting myself in
you get that adrenaline going right and
you know you you want to become Superman
you think you can leap over tall
buildings and at the the end of the day
you haven't trained for that right you
know that's that's the bigger problem
the police have trained for this and and
that's their job and not ours not mine
right and and that's where the problem
lies you know we have to stop even
though we carry a firearm that does not
give us the right to play James Bond you
know we have to know where to stop where
to protect ourselves protect our loved
ones versus something just happened
what's the best thing for me to do so I
mean you know we're talking about a
couple of things here but from a legal
liability perspective what I'm hearing
you say Terry is that you know putting
myself into this situation exposes me
from a safety perspective can expose me
from a legal perspective and I listen I
wish we lived in a country that that
wasn't the case okay that
well-intentioned actions and and there
is some good Samaritan protection there
but if you're wrong or if you make a
mistake or you show negligence then your
liability shows up so it sounds like
from a attorney's perspective you're
saying gosh it's wiser and and safer
probably not to try apprehending a fling
felon well correct and here's the other
part you you might get charged
criminally as well so what if you take
me down and it's not what you thought it
was and now you've done kind of a a pat
down or something like that do I get
charged with sexual assault now because
you know I've chased you down and I've
had to check you out to make sure
there's nothing there you open yourself
up to so many liabilities where the
police they're protected by the
government MH so again I just want to
tell you shooting down the road at
somebody unless I can number one
articulate a an imminent threat of great
bodily harm or death bad idea because
you make a serious mistake and a
prosecutor can charge you with negligent
discharge with aggravated assault if you
hit somebody else from a a civil
liability perspective lots of problems
um and so I I really don't recommend
that and the the apprehending of fleeing
felon man is so fraught with danger I I
would just say don't play Batman just
just don't be that guy don't be the
Punisher right you know be a good
witness call the cops and let them
handle it thought agreed I fully agree
because at the end of the day if this
person is embolden enough to Rob someone
and shoot someone think what they'll do
to you yeah all right guys hope it helps
the
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