it's chris
on the phone julie samuels she is from the electronica father frontier
foundation
an attorney who is the mark you been chair to eliminate stupid patents and
welcome to the program drew
entrapping make uh... so now i i want to talk about this uh... in general terms
but uh...
uh... the the idea of stupid patents is
prominently on my mind because that is
public knowledge now that uh...
uh... coupled major podcast networks have been
uh... have been uh... sued
essentially by this uh... company called personal audio which i guess uh...
claims to have a patent
on the whole process
of of of podcasting
give me an overview of what what you put your senses is going on uh... here in
the most talked about uh... the stupid thousands in general
sicilian unfortunately what we seat
kid that did is kind of typical right now and it's a really bad news is
incredibly dangerous you know both
back on me and i think that this idea lax but but
what these companies teo
if they get really broadly worded patton
at that are hard to understand that baby back
you know basic idea is that we are take for granted like podcasting
uh... like eating orbit wifi coffee shop
and the patent role start reading the threatening letters probably not
i'd like the one you are unfortunately cokie uncw customers to end user to use
sometime small companies uh...
indicate that the open a wifi patton if they're going after small ka
coffee cap in nursing homes
uh... and they can handle a sitting fee and they pay if you don't pay a polite
camping fee because we think you probly in french our patent
we're going to feel
but here at the catch
patrick occasion ism one of the month expected kind of litigation
it cost
millions of dollars take the years
you know most people are in a position where they want to go through that cost
you're both financial and other reported that need to be
displayed so what do they do
if at all
um... they take away camping fee
and you can understand why it looked at the logical sweat you're trying to run a
business to grow a business
which is really unfortunate because what we feel that is that these
really frankly crappy patents and it rolled the patent roles a few them is as
weapons
create what do the centrally attack on innovation so
when um... when
this uh... outfit
um... sue
whose these uh...
these podcast networks or presumably sends letters to other podcasts and says
you should get our license
or are you know have your patent lawyer
uh... you know take a look and see if you're violating our patent
uh... now just you know
pi can tell you that from my own personal experience
fired our patent lawyer sometime ago catholic yeah so much already the report
budgets because um... he was he was he was
just really messing around the office uh... and so we just have not uh...
stomach and since then wed-fri since this this uh... in the case uh... of
what's happening with parole in these others
uh... their patent basically and this is a
indeed this is the way that there'd they describe it is a system for
disseminating media content representing at the same
it's innocent lives sequence
that seems like just about
every media doesn't need to worry that
you know that's exactly the problem
i think you've got to take that back to try to understand what's going on here
also i had that yeah i i think you then etc
it out
some people think it's lately try subject matter but
i don't let's get and you know mostly patents are software patents and tell
about twenty years ago
we really didn't have any proper pat united faith
um... coated a relatively new phenomenon
and there are one thing that killing except about software patents apparatus
into technology moves so quickly but yet the happily for twenty years ago
by the time the patented cramping off in the technology adopt week
or uh...
you know it did what we team
the data show that
top-up and are notoriously broaden its for a free vague it don't make them
boyer oftentimes don't understand them software engineers don't understand them
and the patent rollback able to take advantage of this really broadly weijin
day
u_n_ french that and even if you don't it's still hard to figure out that it's
going to take jerry's expert witnesses and
who want to spend all that money
so e pat buchanan are able to shut down if you know or extract on the money for
he'd brought property like
pack at now i mean free since i got you know and i'm just getting this from
wikipedia but i mean it's clear that uh... podcasting existed in the uh... in
the early nineties even in the the
in the nineteen eighties
uh... some form of disseminating audio content in this way
and yet and
this company says that they filed the patent in uh... twenty twelve
uh... and that was based on another path that they had uh... in ninety six
how houses barry issued this
gotten i mean uh... for stuff that has already existed
well you bring up a good point and there are a lot of concerns about quality at
the patent office about the quality of the patent that actually make out of the
patent and papa they're really legitimate concerns um...
you are of course not going to be able to get a patent abt invention that
either already exist
or an invention that otherwise would be obvious
uh... and you know
it's in that that day
seemed a little troubling and i think um... that
budget giving property to challenge the validity of a patent
uh...
pedophile something at the pat not paying properties screwed up the patent
let's revisit it but to be damn it
icon thousands of dollars and require the lawyer
and just not evi and what so troubling frankly about
where we found i found a situation of all these people who don't want to be
before the patent office blakey who you know you pioneer pat moynihan you know
one at the back not if you want to do you think you can put into your payment
but then you find yourself having no choice
you're really affected by the picked them
hadn't been set up to protect your about address
and it is you know the uh... the idea of patents is is in the constitution
but the iso
you know the
this is a a sort of a fundamental building block but it's in this clearly
being abused
self so in other words so
these guys
or and let's just say speak about it hypothetically speaking go when they
file a patent because they have the cash they know they can outlast essentially
anybody that they go after
uh... and this is it just seems to be sort of
extortion in the west
i think that's right i think that's really their at i think it important
expect understand at where the wheel how often system
i'd indicated better d understand what's really going on
and that had to do with the problem with software i firmly believe that though
i think for second row armored vehicle patent prompted alpha kayak drug
uh... a drug companies developing new drugs they need to take a few rerouted
attempting at the f_d_a_
on animal document ninety mins again
abell oftentimes and quick to a billion dollars developing and dried and
sometimes at the end of you know a decade and all that kind of thing
they'll find out the drug doesn't even work in humans so you can understand why
it may be the government would want to incentivize that kind of investment
by offering a twenty year monopoly in exchange they work really hard about
this trial that'll be good for through friday and will give you the monopoly to
make your money back
it doesn't make sense of software and yet
fundamental disconnect had to really led to this problem
and so what is that
what is the recourse is is is it the statutory i mean could uh...
as i know that uh... you've been working on on legislation to yet to deal with
this uh... tell us a little bit about that
double-edged i think that what did plant your first question it weekly got
legislation and i think there
did not want over bullet right now sort of getting ripped off a patent byerly
but but there are a bunch of
potential okay that are happening that i think
a combination of which would make
the world a lot better um...
one of those david legislation that currently pending a prob but she'll
dapat it in the house
uh... and it
eventually
would require and parent katelyn
that the patent role who brings a lot of people play fifty than expected
of yeah
wedding party so if the patent will bring the food and loses
it had to pay two million dollars it cost frightening
and that's important because part of what
that the people business metal
patrol business model evening is pentagon
it good idea
at its still expected to fight patrolled the court that no one died
uh... so we're going to level the playing field a little bit
right coded and then tonight
he party to fight back
so that the cold again just kind of walk all over everyone farrakhan other things
happening there
uh... that court bury our court date they they're the tape right now pending
in deepti that
could limit the scope of the day trip patents where
filing briefs they're waiting to be what happened and there are both self-help
option uh...
company like twitter have been really great on the company called me away
justify really egregious patent colored one
um... there is ad
uh... academic paper right now that
proposes that put the public effective that might contain scheme where
party to it all
light really liked it there pat to each other and promise not to you want them
uh... i think that build self-help remedies are also going to be really
important to make the system work better for people
you know opting for working on and jackie got a budget projections up
and web site called defend innovation dot org
borax reporting comments up from
people who actually work in the field people who actually have company people
who are actually software engineers to find out
what would help her what wouldn't help and then we're going to take those
comments to defeat
to hell and take a it time to take this problem uh... and people are looking
right now they care people in ppr calling they want it now
why the problem is that they get what we can do to make it better citing courage
anybody's interacted
to go to defend the vision that oregon help but pen pushed me forward now is it
possible that um... there can be legislation to simply uh... negates
specific patents
uh...
and that's a good question need to go after certain patco
they're they're art i'd come live
extending what can and cannot be patented
so that mort subject matter and the entire subject matter specific and we
might be able to play around a little bit like that but that the pending in
the courts right now and basically why that's relevant and if the pope attack
you in the lead but it yet is that the law currently fed you can't patent
abstract idea
he could help you own an abstract idea that they prepare proposition
and too many people you've software n outlet in the code and that make up the
basis of these
ridiculous patent is actually rather abstract
so that that plated being heard in the court
this month right i mean is so he and the instance of uh... the podcast if there's
no a particular mechanism but rather just a concept of
disseminating uh... audio content online in the same way that you would
uh... you know a blog post right i mean because if it's uh... you know in our
sets the
essentially uh...
that would
be that would be an idea right as opposed to sort of
the discussing tool it seems to me
right i think that's a really big problem because
and the court expect concern about that but hoping they will continue to you
their isn't coming event for a patent that just add that the a single
invention and how you can come into that one invention
but not the idea apart cap at the idea of our offense feed maybe someone had
come
really have a way of preventing optimal podcast
okay well then let's talk about that i don't even know what that might be are
definitely more removal proposition and thank bapat cap are unhappy that the
placard and that the temping work working really hard to to fight again no
one of the implications if these people who have been sued would it would be
implications if they just settle means is that create anymore
uh...
basis upon which
upon which a court would decide it all
or is that just did it just creates more of a precedent in terms of just sort of
the
the norms of the business
yeah i mean i think the worst part about that it is important that the pack
twelve
right think they've been there for a little bit easier make their business
work a little bit more fluently
uh... and that not ideal
i dedicate it covered actually facing the situation they probably need to talk
to a lawyer
to find out
their best quest of action
epr anyway by the way cool recommended nor in the latter
because the other thing that we'd be happening though many of these stroll
handout kill many letters
that they don't only
when everyone
uh... that recommending anyone necessarily do that you know everyone
got it i would make sense
for their business her uh...
you know in the moment they get that letter
so
it's a complicated calculations to be sure uh...
but you know we ought to be in the world
whereas the letters dot com
right uh...
tell me about it
in greencard barry out at work
well working hard and we're not alone that a lot of folks working really hard
to make that be the case
all right well uh... i appreciate you taking the time today uh...
odd to to serve walked us through this um...
this is probably not going to be the last majority rule
that uh... um... but uh...
with notes uh... but you know i hope that you know at the time being
it'll work booking prayer
the most egregious of these help kind of even tell the story to tell bad the
problem and
here is what i think i get antenna technically it's at least part of the
problem we've had
until we have only
the patent holder had really been going after individuals are small companies
are people who put up at catherine
and all the time in
that changed by the year co now the problem if you will and unit makes good
t_v_ it at the way more compelling story for better or worse but that's really
gotten people's attention
swaroop from these controls perspective amino what do you think they have to
gain
or hypothetically let's say coming after a podcast of the sights i mean it's it's
these in size but we know from a revenue stamp on it
um... were
there's you know
there's not the we're not dealing we're not live in large let's say i mean i
hypothetically speaking to get a patent rolled it kind of oakland
proprietor or it looked like a little bit of t_v_ money
you hire you don't need a lawyer
sent out a bunch of letters right right
both pretty cheap trick that i whether it likely sent out a couple hundred
letters couple thousand letters
you get a couple thousand baht for each one
i guess that's like sort of the nigerian four one nine email scammer presenter
u_s_a_ tell you i don't think it that much different
help frustrating about it what they're doing it we got here at five
to look at the fact that because right now the trolled are exploiting the
loophole paid a lot of that let them created tackle that innovation in our
country elephant created extra to happen entrepreneur that we don't think makes
any sent
and we can get bad
filler tactic that
yeah i mean it's really uh... stunning to see people abuse
use the system in this way
essentially uh... just know that they can go after certain people regardless
of the validity of their claim but uh... really just leveraging the idea of how
expensive it will be to fight it
i think that's right
um... i think that's right and nato additive people at their interest in
learning more
yet that that or defending a base network we're working really hard trying
they can't even get a little bit better that would have to fix it completely but
i'm making a good way to debate that this isn't the way ca
pics everything up strong in our economy it's just not
and finally ah... ah... the mark
cuban share to eliminate stupid patents that's really your your title isn't act
like adults
you guys their that's
well i i can't say that we're also hoping here uh... to the marked q_ been
of
sponsor poem which already reported in the event quickly quickly without life
and i think that's the only person i got it
health and daily sam is unless is anything else you think i should know
hypothetically speaking of course uh...
uh... with uh...
praise
yeah you know i think that we you know we cannot
adding an important talk about the scope of the problem in apart at the heart
about about these
inventory that
it is going to happen
u_p_s_ trucks to be paid good money but i wish i had a better answer for you but
the one thing that is helpful
and i would add people to do
if they feel that they can't get to talk about it
because
so many times the targets of these letters and the target of lafayette are
afraid the people going to come after them right aside from kind of non
disclosure agreement
so they don't i want him
dr mentioned mentality
uh... man
that make it harder for people like me to do our job because what a position
where we need to come into congress when we document judges that
there is a big problem out there and unless we can get
people telling the story of of
check the magnitude of the problem
if it's more of an uphill battle for a so uh...
adelaide today he did tell your story and dave anyone alfonse palace to a let
me know let someone know
we need to explain why this problem it's a big that we can get period people to
pay attention to fixing it
right well i do i will be in touch it uh... julia i appreciate your coming on
and uh... talking to us about this in
uh... i wish i could say you are laid uh... my concerns but uh... what he did
a lot of hopefully not footprints in the for commit this instance
unit jew
lisa mills from the electronic frontier foundation d_-mark cuban share to
eliminate stupid patents thanks so much for joining us
eighty eight