AND FORMER DIRECTOR SENATOR OF THE NEW YORK STATE PARTY AND A
SENIOR
SENIOR SENIOR REPORTER WITH "BUSINESS
INSIDER."
INSIDER." SO ON ONE HAND MANY PEOPLE ARE
SAYING THERE’S A LOT OF
EVIDENCE, SO HOW WOULD YOU
CHARACTERIZE WHERE WE ARE WITH
THIS?
THIS? IS IT AT LEAST THE PRELIMINARY
STAGES OR AN INEVITABLE MARCH
TOWARDS IMPEACHMENT?
TOWARDS IMPEACHMENT? >> CHRIS, I WOULD SAY THAT THERE
ARE A GROWING NEWSPAPER OF
DEMOCRATS WHO BELIEVE THAT THEY
HAVE THE FOUNDATIONAL THAT THEY
NEED TO BEGIN AN IMPEACHMENT.
HOWEVER, YOU’RE GOING TO SEE
MUCH MORE INFORMATION THAT NEEDS
TO COME FORWARD IN THE PUBLIC
DOMAIN BEFORE THEY GO THERE.
YOU’VE HEARD FROM JERRY NADLER,
WHO IS THE CHAIR OF THE
JUDICIARY COMMITTEE.
JUDICIARY COMMITTEE. YOU’VE HEARD FROM NANCY PELOSI
THAT THEY’RE JUST NOT THERE YET.
THE REASON WHY IS THEY
UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT
UNDERSTAND HISTORY ARE CONDEMNED
TO REPEAT IT.
PRESIDENT NIXON DIDN’T HAVE TO
BE IMPEACHED BECAUSE IT WAS SO
BIPARTISAN THAT HE WAS FORCED
FROM OFFICE.
FROM OFFICE. ON THE CONTRARY, PRESIDENT BILL
CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED AND THERE
WAS A BACKLASH TO THAT BECAUSE
IT WAS VERY PARTISAN.
ACTUALLY, HE BUCKED HISTORY IN
1998 AND PICKED UP SEATS BECAUSE
IT WAS PARTISAN.
THESE SAME DEMOCRATS BELIEVE
THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING HE
CAN DO RIGHT NOW IS BRING MORE
INFORMATION INTO THE PUBLIC
DOMAIN AND THAT IS WHY YOU WILL
SEE THEM PUSH HARD TO TRY AND
GET THIS MUELLER REPORT
EVENTUALLY RELEASED TO THE
PUBLIC.
PUBLIC. THAT’S VERY MUCH IN DOUBT.
WHAT WE SAW FROM OUR OWN
REPORTING TODAY FROM MIKE NUMBLY
THAT DEMOCRATS ARE PREPARED TO
USE THE SAME ARGUMENTS THAT
REPUBLICANS HAVE USED FOR THE
PAST TWO YEARS TO TRY TO COMPEL
THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO
RELEASE THAT INFORMATION,
INCLUDING SENSITIVE, CLASSIFIED
INFORMATION, THAT THE
REPUBLICANS FORCED WHEN THEY
WERE IN CONTROL.
>> LET ME READ AT LEAST PART OF
WHAT AXIOS SAYS IS GOING ON
HERE -- DEMOCRATS PLAN TO PURSUE
A SLOW-BLEED STRATEGY WITH
LENGTHY PUBLIC HEARINGS AND
SCORES OF WITNESSES TO MA
METHODICALLY PICK APART TRUMP’S
FINANCES AND PRESIDENCY.
DEMOCRATS WANT TO CREATE A
LARGE, DAMNING PUBLIC RECORD OF
TESTIMONY, DOCUMENTS AND
INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS.
INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS. CONGRESSMAN, FROM A REPUBLICAN
POINT OF VIEW, SMART STRATEGY?
>> NO, I THINK IT’S FOOLISH.
I THINK THIS IS GOING TO TURN
INTO A FISHING EXPEDITION.
I THINK MOST REPUBLICANS ALREADY
FEEL THAT WAY.
I THINK THOSE WHO DON’T LIKE
TRUMP OR THINK HE ISN’T ALWAYS
ABOVE BOARD ALREADY HAVE THAT
PERSPECTIVE AND THIS JUST MAKES
A LOT OF REPUBLICANS DIG IN.
EVEN SOME REPUBLICANS, I MIGHT
ADD, WHO ARE NOT ALWAYS FULLY
SUPPORTIVE OF THE PRESIDENT.
THEY LOOK AT DEMOCRAT AND SAY
RATHER THAN TRY TO GOVERN WHAT
THEY CAMPAIGNED ON THIS, WILL BE
AN OPEN INVESTIGATION AND THEY
WILL LIFT UP EVERY ROCK TO TRY
TO FIND SOMETHING.
>> CONGRESSMAN NADLER TALKS
ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE OF FINDING
EVIDENCE OF CRIMES AND
IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES.
IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES. THIS IS PART OF HIS CONVERSATION
ON ABC "THIS WEEK."
>> SOME OF YOUR FELLOW DEMOCRATS
SAY THE EVIDENCE THE PRESIDENT
OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE IN THE RUSSIA
INVESTIGATION IS AN ABUSE OF
POWER THAT JUSTIFIES
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. CAN THERE BE IMPEACHABLE
OFFENSES LIKE THAT THAT ARE NOT
CRIMES?
CRIMES? >> SURE.
>> SURE. CRIMES AND IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES
ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
THERE CRIME AND NON-IMPEACHABLE
OFFENSES.
OFFENSES. >> YOU HAVE THE ARGUMENT
IMPEACHMENT IS REALLYBOUT
POLITICS IN THE END.
WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THIS?
>> I ACTUALLY DISAGREE WITH THE
CONGRESSMAN.
CONGRESSMAN. I THINK IT’S A GREAT STRATEGY, A
DEATH BY A THOUSAND CUTS.
THERE BE A MOVEMENT TO GET THE
PRESIDENT TO DO A PERP WALK OUT
OF THE WHITE HOUSE.
BUT I HAVE WORKED WITH HIM
BEFORE.
BEFORE. HE’S NOT A SHRINKING VIOLET BUT
NOT A POSSESS AMIST.
WE MAY NEVER GET TO
IMPEEFRPMENT.
IMPEEFRPMENT. >> IF IT’S HIS CASE TO LAY OUT,
DO THE OTHER FIVE INVESTIGATIONS
MAKE IT LOOK LIKE IT’S JUST
PILING ON?
PILING ON? >> I DON’T THINK SO.
AS MUCH MALIGNED AS SHE’S BEEN
IN THE PAST, ALEXANDRIA
OSCASIO-CORTEZ’S LINE OF
QUESTIONING IS IMPORTANT HERE.
AS THE DAILY NEWS OP-ED SAID IT
WAS AN INQUIRY, IT WASN’T
ADVOCACY.
ADVOCACY. THE IMPORTANT THING IS ASK
QUESTIONS THAT GET COHEN AND
OTHERS TO PULL OUT INFORMATION
SO YOU CAN LAY A VERY GOOD, VERY
SOLID CASE THAT WHEN YOU BRING
IT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE,
THERE’S NO SENSE OF PARTISANSHIP
HERE.
HERE. IT’S ABOUT BRINGING THE COUNTRY
TOGETHER.
TOGETHER. THAT’S WHY IT’S IMPORTANT TO DO
IT SLOWLY, CAREFULLY,
METHODICALLY.
METHODICALLY. >> AND THERE IS THAT FAMOUS LINE
FROM THE MOVIE ABOUT WATERGATE,
"ALL THE PRESIDENT’S MEN,"
FOLLOW THE MONEY AND THAT’S
WHERE THE TAX RETURNS COME IN.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> ABSOLUTELY. THIS BRINGS TO MIND SOMETHING
RUDY GIULIANI TOLD ME LAST YEAR.
HE SAID AT THE END OF THE DAY,
THE BIGGEST THREAT THAT TRUMP
FACES, OF COURSE, IS
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. HE SAID OUR JURY IS THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. IT SEEMS LIKE DEMOCRATS ARE
TAKING THAT TO HEART AND THAT’S
THE REASON WHY THEY WANT
EVERYTHING, EVERY DOCUMENT,
EVERY BIT OF WITNESS TESTIMONY,
OUT IN THE OPEN SO THAT THE
PEOPLE CAN DECIDE.
DID THE PRESIDENT COMMIT
IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES OR ARE
DEMOCRATS JUST DIGGING IN AND
GOING ON A FISHING EXPEDITION?
>> I THINK THAT’S SOMETHING SOME
OF THE MORE RESERVED DEMOCRATS
SAID ABOUT MICHAEL COHEN’S
TESTIMONY, WHAT THEY LIKED IS
WHEN THERE WAS HARD EVIDENCE TO
BACK HIM UP.
SINCE HE’S SOMEBODY WHO HAS
KNOWN TO HAVE LIED.
HEIDI, I WANT TO GO TO YOU
BECAUSE YOU WROTE THAT EXCLUSIVE
PIECE ABOUT THE WAYS AND MEANS
COMMITTEE GETTING READY TO GO
AFTER THE TAX RETURNS.
GET US UP TO DATE ON THAT.
>> RIGHT, CHRIS, THE WAYS AND
MEANS COMMITTEE HAS NOW MADE
DEFINITIVE DECISION THAT THEY’RE
GOING TO GO AFTER THOSE TAX
RETURNS.
RETURNS. AND IT COULD HAPPEN IN THE NEXT
FEW WEEKS.
FEW WEEKS. REALLY, IT’S JUST A MATTER OF
SENDING A LETTER TO THE IRS.
HERE’S THE RUB, WE’RE EXPECTING
THAT THE TREASURY SECRETARY
COULD ACTUALLY REFUSE THAT
REQUEST, WHICH WOULD BE
UNPRECEDENTED SINCE THIS
COMMITTEE DOES HAVE THE LEGAL
RIGHT TO REQUEST ANY AMERICANS’
TAX INFORMATION.
TAX INFORMATION. DEMOCRATS BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE
ON SOLID, LEGAL FOOTING.
BUT HERE’S WHAT THEY’RE
CONCERNED ABOUT CONSIDER P,
CHRIS, A DRAWN-OUT, LEGAL
PROCESS THAT COULD STALL THEIR
EFFORTS AND THROW A NUMBER OF
INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE HOUSE
THAT REALLY RELY ON THE TAX
RETURNS RANGING FROM HOUSE
FINANCIAL SERVICES TO THE
OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE AND, YES, TO
THE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE.
SO WHAT THEY’RE DOING IS PULLING
IN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT
COMMITTEES TO ALSO MAKE A
LEGISLATIVE ARGUMENT FOR WHY
THOSE TAX RETURNS ARE THE BASIS
FOR A NUMBER OF INVESTIGATIONS.
AND THIS IS WHERE THEY GO -- I’M
SORRY?
SORRY? >> HOW CONFIDENT ARE THEY
FEELING THEY WILL GET THEM ON
EITHER FRONT?
EITHER FRONT? >> DEMOCRATS ARE VERY CONFIDENT
IN THEIR LEGAL ARGUMENT.
WHEN REPUBLICANS ACTUALLY DON’T
DISPUTE THAT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT
TO GET THEM, BUT IT’S A QUESTION
OF WHEN THEY GET THEM.
SO IF THEY ARE THE BACKBONE FOR
SOME OF THESE INVESTIGATIONS, A
DELAY COULD BE A BIG PROBLEM
BECAUSE THEY’RE LOOKING INTO SO
MANY THINGS THAT RELATE TO
TRUMP’S BUSINESSES RANGING FROM
THE MOSCOW TOWER TO, FRANKLY,
THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THE
ENTIRE TRUMP BUSINESS MODEL OF
USING THESE SHELL COMPANIES, 500
DIFFERENT LLCs ALL OVER THE
WORLD, TO POTENTIALLY -- I THINK
POTENTIALLY BECAUSE THESE ARE
ACCUSATIONS AT THIS POINT BUT
THERE MAY BE EVIDENCE OF MONEY
LAUNDERING, SO THEY WANT TO GET
THE TAX RETURNS AND IF THEY
DON’T, CHRIS, THEY MAY HAVE
OTHER OPTIONS INCLUDING
SUBPOENAING DEUTSCHE BANK,
INCLUDING BYING
INCLUDING BYING INCLUDING BRINGING IN FOLKS LIKE
ALLEN WEISSELBERG, THE BOBBOOKKE
FOR TRUMP’S BUSINESSES, AND GO
AFTER TAX RETURNS.
>> CONGRESSMAN, IS THIS WHAT
MAKES REPUBLICANS MOST NERVOUS,
COMPLICATED, CERTAINLY
COMPLICATED, CERTAINLY COMPLICATED GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF
MONEY TALKED ABOUT AND THE WAY
IT WAS MOVED AROUND, COMPLICATED
TAX RETURNS?
TAX RETURNS? >> I DON’T THINK SO.
THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOT GOING
TO GIVE THEM UP.
I THINK THE PRESIDENT SHOULD
HAVE RELEASED TAX RETURNS WHILE
HE WAS CAMPAIGNING.
THAT WON’T HAPPEN.
WE KNOW THERE WILL BE A FIGHT TO
THE BITTER END.
IT’S NOT HIGHLY LIKELY THE TAX
RETURNS WILL BE RELEASED SOON.
I THINK IT’S MORE OF A RISK TO
DEMOCRATS RESPECTFULLY BECAUSE I
THINK THE AMERICAN PUBLIC GETS
VERY CONFUSED BY THE ULTIMATE
DIFFERENT REITERATIONS OF THE
NUMBER OF INVESTIGATIONS AND
IT’S HARD --
>> MAYBE, BUT I’M NOT SURE THEY
GET CONFUSED ABOUT A PRESIDENT
BREAKING PRESS DIDN’T AND NOT
RELEASING HIS TAXES.
>> BUT HE HAS ALREADY.
>> DO PEOPLE AUTOMATICALLY,
ESPECIALLY IF YOU’RE UNDECIDED,
LET’S NOT TALK ABOUT THE FAR
RIGHT OR FAR LEFT, IF YOU SAY
HE’S NOT GOING TO RELEASE THEM,
DO YOU SAY HE MUST HAVE
SOMETHING TO HIDE?
>> I AGREE WITH THE CONGRESSMAN
IN THIS RESPECT, I THINK A LOT
OF THAT IS ALREADY BUILT IN.
IF CONGRESS AND JERRY NADLER
WILL MAKE THE CASE, THEY’RE
GOING TO NEED TO DO ALL OF THE
COMPLEX WORK AND DECIPHERING ON
THEIR OWN BUT FOR THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE, THEY’RE STILL GOING TO
WANT TO KNOW DEMOCRATS ARE
GOVERNING ON THEIR BEHALF.
THAT’S THE CHALLENGE WITH THIS
IMPEACHMENT ARGUMENT BECAUSE IF
WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THAT, IT
TAKES AWAY FROM EVERYTHING ELSE
WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT.
>> A NEW POLL, 37% BELIEVE THE
PRESIDENT IS HONEST AND TRUTHFUL
WHEN IT COMES TO THE RUSSIA
INVESTIGATION BUT WHEN YOU ASK
REPUBLICANS, 75%, ALMOST 76%,
GIVE HIM APPROVAL FOR WHAT HE’S
DOING.
DOING. I WONDER HOW MUCH OF THIS WILL
BE TIED UP IN THE POLLS?
>> YES, AND I THINK THAT’S WHERE
WIN TESTIMONY IS CRITICAL.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW MUCH
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE MIGHT NOT
CARE AS MUCH ABOUT FINANCIAL
CRIMES OR GETTING HIS TAX
RETURNS BUT WHEN YOU HAVE
SOMEONE LIKE MICHAEL COHEN, THE
PRESIDENT’S FORMER LAWYER AND
FIXER, GO BEFORE THE HOUSE
OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE AND REALLY
IMPLICATE THE PRESIDENT IN A
MULTITUDE OF TIMES --
>> HERE’S THE CHECK, RIGHT, A
THING.
THING. HERE’S THE CHECK.
>> EXACTLY.
>> EXACTLY. IT’S KIND OF HARD FOR PEOPLE TO
SEE THAT AND SAY -- MAYBE THEY
DON’T AGREE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP