And joining me now to further unpack. What we learned today are Andrea
Bernstein. She is co host of the will be wild podcast examining the
events leading up to and through January 6th. She's also a regular
NPR contributor, and Jameel Jaffer. He is a law professor at George
Mason University and a former associate counsel.
To President George W. Bush. Welcome to both of you. There were so
many disclosures and bits of new information today it's hard to know
even where to begin. But
As you look at it all. Andrea Bernstein, what is standing out the
most to you?
So I think what we began to see today was a connection between Trump
and the violent activity that happened on January six. So what we've
known so far is that he pressured his Justice Department to
try to overturn state electors that he pressured Mike Pence that
he pressured state legislators in state local officials.
But what we heard today was a knowledge of President Trump that people
in the crowd before him had weapons flagpoles tipped with spear,
body armor, pepper spray bear spray.
That they couldn't get in to see him because they didn't want to
lay down their weapons.
Mm. Even with that he went up in front of them and said, fight like
hell. We're going to go to the capital. I'll be there with you now.
One of the things we learned today is that the time he really did
believe he was going to the capital until his Secret Service team
didn't let him go. But I think what's emerging is a sense that
This violence was understood by the president. The White House had
warnings of violence. Rudy Giuliani was saying as early as January
2nd that something was going to happen on January six. So what this
does is it
Moves us closer to the question of was president Trump. What did
he know about the planned violence? We don't know All of it. But
we know that he knew that there was a weaponized riled up crowd and
that he himself was extremely riled up when he made that speech on
the Ellipse on January six. And Jameel Jaffer, What about for you?
What? What is standing out the most for you?
Yeah, You know, I think Judy Andrews exactly right. The idea that
the president knew the crowd was armed, was not worried that they
were going to target him that they were going to threaten him. But
instead we're actually threaten the capital. And we're gonna planning
on march in the capital that he was supportive of that and called
upon them to do that.
I think is is pretty pretty shocking Direct evidence. And then on
top of that, you add the fact that after the fact when Patsy Bologna
comes into the Oval Office with Mark Meadows, and they leave in their
discussing what happened in the Oval, and Mark Meadows is saying
this a baloney. Look, The president thinks Mike Pence deserves this.
With the chance of saying Hang my pen. CDC deserves it.
And that that these people, these who have stormed the capital or
doing nothing wrong, I mean, that is not the kind of behavior expect
from any president at all. And it's It's just shocking to me. You
don't see more congressional Republicans today running fast away
from Donald Trump.
Because it is just shocking and astounding What we heard today. Well,
speaking of that, Andrea Bernstein how surprising is it that a number
of white House um keep people including Pat sip Aloni were concerned
in the hours and the days leading up to January 6th about what happened.
Well, I think we've had some inkling of this. We know, for example,
that pass abalone was one of the people who didn't want Trump to
replace his acting attorney general with another acting attorney
general. So there has been an indication that there was concern around
the White House. I think what was different today as we had this
direct testimony from a White House aide.
A young woman coming before this committee. I mean, most of the witnesses
have been older men, and there she is, and she is saying under oath
and obviously lying to Congress is a is a felony, and she went up
there and she spoke the truth, and we saw people like former General
Mike Flynn.
Who had been convicted of lying to the FBI previously before Trump
pardoned him, taking the Fifth Amendment and not even answering the
question about whether he thought blocking the peaceful transfer
of power was a crime. So that contrast was stark today and I think
having that eye witness testimony really took us further into understanding
what was going on in the White House.
Up to and on January six was such a such a sharp contrast. You're
absolutely right, Jameel Jaffer. What about in terms of evidence
or information we heard today that is legally incriminating.
For the president, Former president
Well, look, I think that we've always long known that as a legal
matter. There's some real challenges bringing a case against the
former president, particularly about issues relating to politics
and elections. And like this would be a difficult case to make that
would run the Justice Department into the problems of being accused
of being political. So I think it's hard to do I do think what's
interesting is what happened right at the end of the hearing.
Where you had trump world people calling potential witnesses before
Congress and saying, Hey, look, the president knows you're loyal.
He's he's thinking of you today. I mean, this is something you'd
see. Literally in, you know, Goodfellas or casino? It's straight
out of a Mafia Don movie.
Um and, uh And that actually may be actionable, right? Maybe not
the actions of the president but but potentially the actions of his
aides who said these things, Um and maybe all the way up to the president,
just like you'd work up to a Mafia boss threatening witnesses before
Congress. That is a crime, and that is something a referral could
be made on. And that may be the place that Congress goes. I think
it's gonna be a lot harder.
For them to get some of these other charges have been talking about,
um, against the president's obstructions. Conspiracy charges much
more difficult to prove, particularly in the context of an ongoing
election in the sitting president at the time. What about that? Andrea
Bernstein? I know you talked to a number of people around this. What
are you hearing? Uh, In terms of whether the president could now
be in serious legal jeopardy, former president could be in serious
legal jeopardy.
His own White House counsel thought he was going to be in C in serious
legal jeopardy if he went to the capital, And he warned specifically,
according to Cassidy Hutchinson that the president could be charged
with obstruction of a persistent obstruction of an official proceeding,
fraud or inciting a riot. Now that is if the president went to the
capital, But it is quite stark that the White House lawyer
Told the president that that the White House lawyer warned the shape
of staff the president could have blood on his hands. So that isn't
me Speaking. That is the man who in the president's first impeachment
essentially blocked all witness participation coming from the White
House. So this is somebody who was very loyal to trump who was saying
these things at the end of the day, So I think that there is concern
there.
And then I think, at the very end of the hearing that sort of dramatic
finale was when Representative Cheney asked Cassidy Hutchinson whether
Meadows asked for a pardon. And she said, Yes, he did, And that was
the sort of then the curtain dropped on her testimony, and that leaves
a very strong sense that he thought he'd done something wrong.
And I think you know now we have this breaking the hearings, presumably
unless they call us back and that is left ringing in the air for
you know, all of us to hear, but the Justice Department to think
about as well as I think whether to bring charges against the president
and or people around him. And just a very quick answer from you,
Jameel Jaffer on the fact that some of what Cassidy Hutchinson testified
today was hearsay. It was what
She heard other people describing does that how does that hold up
compared to what she personally witnessed?
I mean, look, certainly it was hearsay. She was describing other
people said at the end of the day, she was a fact witness to a lot
of what happened. She saw what happened. She heard the president
speak at the end of the day. There are gonna be other witnesses called
unless they refute Cassidy, Hutchinson said. I think the story sticks
and it's a real real problem for the president and the Republicans
that seek to back the president in a further election, or the like.
Jameel Jaffer. Andrea Bernstein, We thank you both.